Growth of Export in India’s Defence Industry

After such a long time, you know, if you can disclose. How are you? Me?

Hello friends, this is C Paul Singh, President, NISSMAT International. A very good evening, and thank you all for joining us today evening. NISSMAT has been conducting webinar and interactive session for the last more than one and a half year. We have so far conducted 131 webinars, where minimum two scholars participate in the session. Besides, we have also been conducting a number of interactive sessions, which is addressed by one expert on the subject. Today's interactive session on Growth of Export in India's Defense Industry is being addressed by a defense analyst and a senior fellow of Center for Land Warfare Studies, Major Dr PK. I extend a warm and hearty welcome to our eminence speaker, and other delegates also was present there.

Let me introduce NISSMAT in a few words. This was established in 1990, about three decades plus back, and started courses in the field of private security, safety management and applied technology. With the passage of time, we started some courses and fire services also, and today NISSMAT has become a think tank organization with an association of more than 85 scholars with us, who provide inputs in the field of security, safety and other topical subjects also. NISSMAT has established three wings: the NISSMAT Forum, which conducts webinars, seminars, interactive sessions, then presentations, awards, etc. The second one is NISSMAT Education, which conducts online training. Then we have got NISSMAT Enterprises, which conducts studies, case studies, surveys and establish international relations. The fourth, which we are yet to start, is NISSMAT Foundation, to understand and undertake welfare and social work for the society, particularly pertaining to law and order, and this of course will start in due course of life when we establish adequate resources for the social welfare work.

Now let me say a few words about the chairman. They worry about Captain Pawanjit Ahluwalia. He took voluntary retirement from the Parachute Regiment of the Indian Army at a very young age and started his business in almost an unknown area. With his warmth, with his empathy, he is able to bring out the best in other people. He has an internal sense to find out a silver lining in the worst situation. He's a businessman who's unafraid of telling truth. I have seen him in the industry forum; he is very forthright and unafraid of telling his viewpoint. He is adept in creating alliances and has created a business group under the name of Ahluwalia Holdings Private Limited, which has offices at multiple locations in India and abroad. He is a past president and former chairman of Council of International Investigators, USA, and is a awardee of Welcome Thompson Award and Quarterly Award by this council. In due course, within next few months, few minutes, Mr Pawanjit Ahluwalia will moderate the session.

Now let me say a few words about the subject itself. The defense industry of India is an important strategic sector. India is one of the largest military forces, it has one of the largest military forces, with a huge budget sanction for the military. Due to certain geopolitical reasons and non-availability or non-production of adequate equipment indigenous, it also depends on huge imports for the defense sector to keep them, his forces, our forces. The government declared a few years back to reduce the defensive force by expanding the defense production sector, and it's pushing for great jumps for indigenization of the military hardware. Due to the mob policy, India started a large-scale production, which I mentioned just a few months after, but it has started also exporting some defense equipment, touching a record 13,000 crores as well as the Indian defense indigenous industry was concerned, and its force with 70 percent contribution from the private sector and the remaining 30 percent from the public sector. The defense exports from our country are mainly to Philippines and other countries in Southeast Asia, West Asia and Africa, and to some extent in some place in USA. A number of private sector industries have been incorporated in this field, which were earlier restricted only to themselves. These big players include Tatas, L&T, Kalyani Forge. Beside this, the DRDO, also in partnership with this private industry, has increased its production. The Ordnance Factory of India secured a big export some years back for UA, for supplying them artillery shells.

The government has given great impetus towards the manufacturing of defense equipment so as to become sort of Atmanirbhar, as they call it. Indigenously designed, it is dwelt and manufactured categories in the defense equipment have increased in the recent past. Foreign direct investment in the defense sector has shot up to say about 74 percent, they say. Now there's no doubt that despite the strategy, despite the economic importance of this sector, there have been reports sometimes about some scandals linked to the defense needs. This of course needs close monitoring, and the government is keeping it under scan. It has been projected now that 75 percent newly developed artificial intelligence products and technology products having application in defense will soon be launched indigenous. The domain in this particular artificial intelligence sector is reported to be covering automation, unmanned robotic systems, cyber security, human behavior analysis, intelligence monitoring, and also logistics, writing management and wise analysis, etc. Now, however, India has to diversify the supply of organization to meet his name, so that to wean away the military needs from and dependence on some countries like Russia. In the short term goal, we should have indigenization to an extent so as to be able to, as a foreign, to a great extent. A large number of other systems are also in various stages of development, and our speaker, Doctor Chakravarty, shall address and analyze the dynamics of the growth of source in India's defense industry. With these words, I'll pass on the session to Captain Pawanjit Ahluwalia to moderate the session now onward. Thank you very much.

Thank you very much, President sir. I'd like to start by acknowledging the presence of participants from various countries. As I speak, we are live on Zoom and on YouTube, and we have registrations today from India obviously, the United States, Singapore, the UAE, the United Kingdom, Romania and Qatar. I'd like to acknowledge that we have had a few sponsors for this particular event. We've had Premier Consulting and Investigations Private Limited, Premiership Private Limited, India Skills and JMD Cargo. We are also looking for more sponsors for our events, and I'd be very happy if somebody could come out and sponsor various events, because it helps us to move on. During the talk today, I request you all to remain muted, have your videos on, your cell phones switched off so that there's no distraction from the sites, and if you have any questions, please sort of raise your hand. At the bottom of the screen there's a hand sign to raise your hand, and I'll revert to you at an opportune time.

I'd like to introduce our president to you. Mr Sipal Singh is a masters in English literature, and he has served the Government of India in very senior police appointments across the country. He was the architect of raising the Rapid Action Force, which was under the CRPF, and he was its first chief. He also raised the Internal Security Academy in Mount Abu, Rajasthan. He's a very decorated police officer. He's received the President's Police Medal for Distinguished Service, the Indian Police Medal for Meritorious Service, the Police Special Duty Medal with bar, a Sena Medal and a number of other recommendations and rewards. After retirement, he's helped disco in managing its security and vigilance matters in their coal field division. He's also been the chairman of the technical committee of Quality Control of India, which formulated the standards for the star rating of the private security industry. He's also been actively involved in developing the curriculum for private security guards training under the security sector and skill development council. He was the head of the committee we designed and worked out national occupation standards for the firefighters in India. In the year 2009, he was awarded the Security Personality of the Year award by the President of India. He currently serves as an advisor to the Asian Professional Security Association, the honor, and he's also the honorary director general, the centralization of private security industry in India, and the Association of Private Detectives and Investigators. Mr Sipal's face is well known in India as a dynamic security professional and is frequently called upon to share his views on various subjects connected to homeland security on national news channels.

And now it's my profound honor and privilege to introduce a very dear friend of mine, Major General PK Chakravarty, who's the speaker of the day. General Chakravarty is an alumnus of the National Defence Academy, was commissioned in the Regiment of Artillery in the year 1972. He's a silver gunner from the long gunnery staff course. He's attended the staff college and is a graduate of the National Defence College. He's completed his PhD from Hindustan Institute of Technology and Science and MPhil from the Madras University. He has commanded a medium regiment and a composite artillery brigade. He was the deputy director general at Perspective Planning Directorate, which is now called the Strategic Planning Directorate. He has remained major general artillery of an operational command and the commandant of a selection center south in Bangalore, and been the additional director general artillery dealing with operations and procurement at army headquarters. He was responsible for procurement of artillery equipment and selection of officers to the Indian Army and the Indian Navy. He has also served as a defense attache to Vietnam, where he cultivated keen interest in China.

The general is a prolific writer on strategic subjects. He is currently a defense analyst and a senior fellow with the Center for Land Warfare Studies. Post retirement, he has been very busy with numerous assignments and writing commitments. He has written books, articles and projects for the Institute for Defence Studies and Analysis, the United Services Institution, Center for Land and Air Force Studies, Center for Joint Warfare Studies and Vivekananda International Foundation. His areas of interest are strategy, fire power, defense procurement, defense analysis, net assessment, technology and defense, artificial intelligence in South and Southeast Asia, Indo-Pacific and left-wing extremism. His book Fire Power, published by CLAWS, is a seminal work on the subject. This was followed by Weapons and Missiles in the Indian Environment, Assessment of Chinese Military Modernization and its Implications for India. He's edited a path-breaking book, Future for Land Warfare Beyond the Horizon, which was released by the cabinet minister Shri Nitin Gadkari in 2019. Currently his new book, Future Technologies for the Indian Army, has been launched by the Vice Chief of Army at the Center for Land Warfare Studies. He is now working on his latest book, Afghanistan, China, Pakistan, Taliban and Beyond. He has organized and participated in numerous seminars at national and international levels. He has spoken to an international audience on the unique military strategy of Netaji Subhash Chandra Bose, where Mr Modi attended. He has addressed in National Defence College and participated in Center for Joint Warfare Studies seminars. He's frequently called for his expert views on several TV channels. He has been promoting defense exports, and his ideas have been innovative and progressive in this field. He has been actively involved with the Brahmos missiles in India. Ladies and gentlemen, I present to you General Chakravarty.

Thank you so much, and a very good evening to all of you. Firstly, I should start by thanking the president, Pal Singh, who really has introduced the subject and me so well, and also profusely thank my dear friend Captain Pawan Ahluwalia, who is known to me right from my very very humble days when we joined the National Defence Academy. I'm sure it's a privilege to address an audience which is so learned and so knowledgeable on a subject which is of current importance. I would also like to thank my friend General DK Maitha, who has also been supporting me in getting into touch with all of you in this issue.

Well, let's start with the subject, defense exports. By and large, I started handling this subject when I was posted as a defense attache in 1996 in Vietnam. Believe me, I realized at that time that firstly India was a big market. The businessmen are generally satisfied with just satisfying the home grower, and we are quite content in going about life. As my friend Captain Pawan said, we have so many resources that we are quite happy that everything can be done by everybody. We don't have to do much ourselves. We have a driver to drive the car, we got, you know, we got a market, and the Indian businessmen, when I used to talk to them about exports, I do remember they felt that it was more of a hobby than undertaking a mission. Well, if India has to be on the high table, which all of us want that India should be, and India is landing on the high table, there is no way out, and I fully agree both with the president as well as the chairman that the current government has given a great push in this regard. I think the path breaking issue is today the Prime Minister Modi's conference in December 2014, where you know he got the private sector fully in and broke all silos on the subject.

Well, first of all, let me say why should we export, and particularly when it comes to defense equipment. First of all, defense equipment, if you don't manufacture it, as brought out by both the chairman and the president, indigenously, there is no hope in hell that in war you would get what you want. Anybody can apply sanctions, anybody can undertake issues which will not enable you to undertake your missions with logistic clarity. You'll run short of ammunition, will run short of equipment. You need equipment which will be required at the spur of the movement. So if the defense industry is not with you, you are automatically having what I would call it, and actually is healed when you are dealing with combat warfare and other issues. The next issue which I would like to say is, once the defense industry starts manufacturing indigenously, the orders for the services, whether the army, the navy, the air force or the police, is very limited. You can't have one order and then close the assembly line. So therefore, right from day one — this is something which I learned the very very hard way — if you today are, let's say, buying an equipment or you're procuring an equipment, we must have firstly an Indian capability or an Indian ability to do manufacture or all the processes with it, and finally you should be able to export it. Export is a word which is not very very, shall I put it, popular in the Indian sentiment, but we are definitely now gradually improving.

The first thing that I would like to say is that without exports, I don't see the defense industry sustaining itself. I have told this on many occasions. Let's say, I'll just take an example. We have made, I mean, the Brahmos missile. Today the greatness of the missile is that we focused on exports, and today already Philippines has bought it. Now this is sustained. Similarly, that means this particular industry, which is a private industry under the Government of India — I repeat, it's a private industry which is under the Government of India and the Russian government — is able to sustain itself by an export order. Similarly, if you take other equipment, artillery equipment we are manufacturing, drones we are manufacturing, so many defense equipment, their survival is purely on the export. Now exports mean that firstly a man who is today in industry, not only he, it involves the entire system. Now the system is the user, the developer, the manufacturer, and finally the government and the embassies of India who are located abroad. All four have to be in synchronization to see exports going in, and believe me, ultimately you require the person who is, shall I say, the OEM to be having really a capability of kinetic die-hard capabilities. That is, he has to undergo a lot of pain.

I would say, when I was hearing just now Sri Pal Singh speak of my friend Captain Ahluwalia, I was just seeing that, look at it, it is not that he has progressed in India and all. You look at his progress in the United States, in other countries. He could flourish as a businessman because his vision went well beyond the Indian subcontinent. It went well beyond the seven oceans into the United States. He has been involved here, he has been involved in other countries. Then only can you today survive. There is no survival by purely being just contained with your own manufacturer, particularly in the defense industry. And in this I would like to straight away say that I'm talking to you as a practitioner, as somebody who has actually undertaken this mission, was tasked to undertake this mission, who has succeeded in the mission, and I see a great success for India in this field. And the person who have helped me for succeeding, or I would put it very clearly, my own services which are the users, then finally it comes to the developers, that is the DRDO and the public sector as well as the private sector.

Now let me put it, today the private sector has been a great great player, as Sri Pal Singh brought out. I'll just give a few figures to know where we are. Well, we have had an export of, as if you watch that, 13,000 crores in 2021-22. Let's say this works out to about roughly a little less than two billion dollars, considering that the rupee is picked as it is today at rupees 80. Believe me or not, these exports — he has named the countries, I will not repeat — but 70 is from the private sector, 30 percent is from the public sector. The defense minister just spelled out his vision, and that is by 2047, which is exactly as I stand 25 years from now, we expect an export order of rupees 2.6 crores, 2.6 lakh crores, which would be about 47 billion dollars. Well, it's not a very big figure. The United States has an export order today of 55 billion dollars. Now this is just an export order, all right. Now if today, if you really take the amount of things they have given to Afghanistan, 85 billion dollars worth of equipment was left in Afghanistan. Now, so therefore, we even in 25 years from now, we would be possibly not reaching what is the United States export figure today.

Leave the United States, let's talk about, I said, let me go to another country which impresses me a lot. I'm not talking of Japan, I'm talking about South Korea. Now South Korea is a very very difficult country from to get any weapons, even whether you want to import them, having been involved with the K9 and Vajra. Okay, let me tell you today that they produce excellent equipment. Currently I have observed in the United States, I thought that only LG and Samsung were only basically products meant for the Indian market, of the Asian market, or for, let's say, at best too in the Gulf countries or in Europe. But today when I go to a Best Buy or Verizon in the United States, I'm surprised to see that the main television sets, the main, what you call, refrigerators and all are Samsung and LG — Samsung more costlier and LG a little less. And look at it, they have made the K9 Vajra. The K9 Vajra, which is today nothing but a self-propelled artillery tank, we got it for not only the deserts, we got it for the deserts which are really a more severe form of deserts. Today the K9 Vajra is deployed in eastern Ladakh. Now if L&T is manufacturing K9 Vajra, why can't we export it?

It is not necessary that everything that you, what you call, my export has to be totally manufactured in your country. I'm just going into say some figures. Boeing, the Boeing aircraft, bulk of the components are made in China. The iPad, which is basically a US, what you call — Apple is supposed to be the biggest company in terms of shares right now — is today having about 65 to 70 parts made in China. So it's not necessary that today if you get something, you have to, what you call, manufacture everything in India. I remember in my discussions once, you know, why India does not make an engine, and very clearly it was a Mahindra company discussion, and let me tell you, they told very clearly: we are going to spend so much time on an engine, we are down by five years, why not buy an engine? The other day I was just telling Captain Pawan, it's exactly three days back, we went on a drive to Houston, and I find the Mahindra tractors agency over there, and a lot of Mahindra tractors roaming around in the United States of America. No doubt such things when we see, and the other day I was in Toronto — only a few days back, not other day, it's exactly five days back — my son and I and my family, we were most impressed when we saw a TCS building, a TCS building in the heart of Toronto on Bay Street. Those of you who understand it, look at the progress we are making in today landing up there. So similarly, in defense equipment, if we land up, want to land up somewhere, if the Indian Army wants to be fed with defense equipment, it is extremely important that some of it must be exported.

Another example I'll give you. We were on the field on simulators, and this was with Bharat Electronics. We were trying to make a simulator so that we can do our night firing and all our firing, you know, in the miniature ranges. You'd agree that firing is a complex process, and anything that is complex becomes expensive. Anywhere you sit down, the first thing on the right hand you see is how much is the finances involved. We made a simulator. The approval process in any government organization takes a lot of time; the procedures are very long. So we decided, we told Bharat Electronics, why don't you export it? The moment we did that, it got approved straight away, by what you call — we did not even export, we just gave it as a concept. Believe me or not, the Indian Army ordered it. Everybody on earth today, I think, is the best simulator in the world for artillery firing. Now when you put this export, exports are like an accelerator. It accelerates a person to do something more than what he's supposed to do.

Now, what should be our targets? What should we look at? People often ask me, what are the areas we should focus on? Well, the inventory is, I think, I learned one thing when I went in and operated in a counter-insurgency environment: you cannot have one approach, you cannot have two approaches, you cannot have three approaches. You're going to have multiple approaches, and you're going to have a wide variety of equipment. Even today, because the president read out my dear friend Captain Pawanjit Ahluwalia's curriculum vitae, it was so impressive that his span covers India, it covers the Indian Army, it covers the United States, it covers so many other countries, and covers a wide array of institutions. When you get down to that, similarly for exports. Well, I wrote an article, I remember, for the Vivekananda International Foundation, post 2014, when the announcement was made, and I listed out some items. One of them was Brahmos, second was the Pinaka, third was the Akash missiles, fourth were, what you call, possibly a few APCs, fifth, and then it went on, about 15 items I listed out. Today when I sit down and see, I see this, even the smallest titan that we make, the smallest component that we make. Forget an item, let's say, that we are talking today that we should have the cages exp aircraft exported. Why can't we make components, like China makes of the Boeing, the Airbus, which we are making — it's not that we are not making. Why can't we make components also? Even these components put you into making the bigger device.

The next thing which I wanted to say is about making India and the importance of Atmanirbhar. Very very fortunate to have interacted with Shri Abdul Kalam, and what you call, also the MD Brahmos and all, after I left service, and very deep interactions made me understand that the word self-reliant doesn't mean you manufacture everything. Let's say there is no harm in today carrying out the complete integration of items. Like today, Israel is a very good integrator. How many things are being manufactured in Israel? I remember we went to buy an equipment known as the LOROS and the UAVs from Israel. I was surprised that even the optical instruments were made by Tamar. Where does Tamam gets its items from? It gets it from Japan, it gets it from France, it gets it from so many countries. The entire process in the end is, in Atmanirbhar, are you able to get a product out of India? And you can get a product provided you can integrate.

So what are the process, shall I say, of coming to Atmanirbhar, or shall I say indigenous manufacture? Now, well, the normal process is like any simple process. I will put it into steps, which everybody says possibly is what China has done. I think these are simple steps, but I think every country has done it. First you copy. After that you imitate. After you have imitated, then you catch up. And after you have caught up, you finally start innovating. And when you, you know, after you start innovating, you then start making your own things. There is no harm in following these steps. Where are we today? Nobody has said exactly where we are. China is definitely in the innovation stage. I feel we are in the catch-up stage. Having written this book, as Pawan very rightly said, on future technologies for the Indian Army, where I've dealt with, they really come down to technologies as they stand, I feel we are in the catch-up stage — a very very important stage. The point is, from the catch-up stage to the innovation stage, we are now heading for it in a big way.

I think only yesterday or day before, I saw ammunition seminar being conducted. I just want to say what a big issue ammunition is, and ammunition so far was only being manufactured by the public sector, or the Ordnance Factory Board to be more precise. I was very very happy to hear the defense minister himself saying that we would like the private sector now to manufacture ammunition. I can assure you, if Russia is doing better than Ukraine, it is because it has got the ammunition, because it has the capability to fire artillery shells, to fire small arms, to fire the tank ammunition which is got, and the ratio as it is of their weapons with that of Ukraine is three is to one. But they have the ammunition supply, and Ukraine president, you'll see, invariably always say, please give us more ammunition, give us more missiles. And that can only happen if the private sector enters. In the private sector also, since we don't have much time — I could have carried out a detailed analysis — if you want a new technology to be made, of things to be improved, the big players we have named, L&T, Tata and all, they would not have much time for research. It is the MSMEs, they are the people who need funding, and they are the people who can really lead you on to the path. I do remember we got ToT of a number of equipments, and when we got these ToTs, as you know, you normally start with, what you call, first initially just the components arriving, then you start making the components. It is so difficult for us to absorb ToT, but we went on to the MSMEs, and the MSMEs are brilliant in our country, believe me, but they need one thing, and they need funding. I'm very happy to say that — I don't have the time to go into the latest, you know, procurement policies and all, because that will be a tall order — but the latest procurement policies allow a number of ways for the MSMEs to be able to be correctly funded.

Now, this combined with our approach, I feel the first person who must be interested in exports is the user. If the Indian Army, the Indian Navy and the Indian Air Force want to be correctly indigenously equipped, like if today indigenization is to take place, my view is the user must be on the forefront. He must like Indian equipment. He must make sure that, what you call, he makes the equipment in such a way that the industry is sustained, and then he is the person who is the best advertiser for the equipment. Fortunately, our Indian armed forces are very strict when they take equipment. So moment an equipment lands up in the Indian Army or the Indian Navy or the Indian Air Force, everybody knows that this is an equipment which is really going to prove its worth on the battlefield. And you can just take any names — you take the K9 Thunder, you take the Rafale. I mean, say, all these have gained importance because the Indian component has taken it. Don't forget that. What is our capability? I mean, say, the INS Vikrant is just going to be handed over to the Indian Navy. Means you've made an aircraft carrier. Look at your capability. Now has it been done purely by the public sector? Has it been done by a combination of public and private? I think the best model we have is a combination of public and private, which is known popularly as the PPP model.

And when we get into the PPP model, let me put it today, the private player, so long as he is interested, because he is somebody who does not follow what I call a nine to five routine. A man in the private sector compels the public sector to also come on to what is known as a 24/7 routine. I mean, in today's world it's a flat world. There are no holidays. There are no, what you call — every time, even when you are today visiting the Niagara Falls, you are also taking a call, you are also looking at a WhatsApp. You are possibly, even when you are visiting Toronto, you are also attending a meeting on Zoom or on Google, on an important activity. And in such a world, there is nothing known as a nine to five scenario. There is nothing known as the lunch break. Everything has to happen simultaneously. Decisions have to flow the way Captain Pawanjit Ahluwalia makes it. Now if you look at his own career, you look at it, there's a born exporter. Joined the Indian Army, left it at a very very early stage, a very bright officer from Seven Para, moves on to the private sector, diversifies himself, lands up into various other countries, and makes us sit on the high team. And I'm so glad that he's making me now finally talk on this subject.

Now, next few issues is what are the things we must focus on manufacturing. I would not get down to the details, but I would say it's known to all of you. Everything that the Indian Army has made out of TPCR, and so that is the technical, whatever is the technical scam, right up to 2027 — please get onto it. Guns, rockets, missiles as well as aircrafts. Everything is known to us. The beauty today is we are going to make all our helicopters. Look at it. The beauty today is that we are making practically most of our naval ships, and also we have made the Arjun. We have made so many artillery guns. Particularly Pinaka is a great success. I see Pinaka, which is today now at 90 kilometers, heading towards 200 kilometers. The ultralight howitzers being manufactured by Mahindra. You would find that the 155 we made, the ATAGS, the highest ranging gun, is in India. So we have got people who are making the best, and definitely all that the government needs is to support the person when he wants to export. It's not very difficult for the private sector to export. I know that Bharat Forge, Baba Kalyani has — I was in Karlskoga for training for the Bofors — there they have a plant in Sweden, they have a plant in many countries. So does the other companies, Tatas and others, which I keep seeing here. So does Mahindra. They can easily get onto this field, provided we all decide. And when we — means, I brought out what is this we — it is a user, please don't forget him, that is army, navy, air force, plus the government, plus the research agency, the developing agencies, and the private sector and public sector.

Now, a few issues that come up, which I think Sri Pal Singh also referred us about. Firstly, we talked about — a little bit time we have got — and that is about the Russian issue. We are fighting the Ukraine war right now, and we are in a big way dependent on Russia for a lot of strategic weapons. I'm often asked that today, if today Russia stops, what will happen? Let me put it today, that we have developed a quality within the Indian armed forces, within the Indian industry and within the research agencies — the quality which is the most important word for at least a businessman: resilience. It's also very important for it. If you don't have resilience, you have no future in business. So we have developed that resilience. We have developed, and luckily we have been carrying out what are known as the list from the Ministry of Defence, that okay, these items will now no longer be exported. It was first about 100 item, now it's gone to 300, it will possibly go on to 500. The point is, if today, let's say, Russia is not able to give us aid, please don't — we may be only delayed, but nothing will stop. We have reached that capability of catch up, and once you reach that capability of catch up, you can catch up. According to me, after we carried out the nuclear explosion in Pokhran, there were a lot of sanctions given on the cryogenic engine. Believe me, the best development took place in the period when we had sanctions. I think the best comes out with you, as they say in the US Marines: when the going gets tough, the tough get going. I think the best comes out with you when you are today with your chips down. You would find that today we would come up, and Indians have tremendous quality of results. You can go anywhere and you'll today find that Indians are occupying all positions, they are solving all problems, and they are able to get everything.

The next thing is, I think Sri Pal Singh referred to, is the issue of defense industry scandals. Well, to be honest with you, this is not only applicable to defense industry, duplicates applicable all over. Scandals are bound to take place. After all, human beings — all human beings can't be honest, all can't be perfect. Others, we will not need a police, we will not need an Enforcement Directorate, we would not need a Central Bureau of Investigation. These are not needed if today everybody was honest, everybody was right. There has to be a little bit of unevenness which happens everywhere. Even — he did say that, possibly one way of, you know, very very — it's not recorded really in this way — but he did say that when you are going to carry out huge investments, corruption will be there. So it is not that, what you call, but to deal with it — I don't think this corruption or scandals is in any way going to affect us in a big way. I still remember that the defense minister, what you call, with regard to the ultralight howitzers said that ST Kinetics, which are the prime contender, has been blacklisted. We went on to an alternative, when we got today an ultralight howitzer which is deployed in operational circumstances.

Now, the best part I just want to share with you is, what is it that makes exports succeed? I think what is required is an untiring zeal, that look here, we must be able to do something to achieve what the country which wants us to do, do it. It is a place where firstly it's a chartering, what is known as an unnavigated crowd, when you get into it, because you have your rules, you have the other country's rules, but at the same time I would like to make it very clear that it is a very challenging and a very interesting thing. At the same time, I must say the role of the defense attache in defense exports becomes extremely important. His interest, his ability to facilitate the industry as well as the industrial products to go ahead goes without saying.

Well, there's a lot more to be said, and I would like to only focus on one more thing: that whenever we take an equipment, or whenever the army decides to procure, or the navy decides to procure, or the air force decides to procure, we must bear one thing in mind, and that is some amount must be right away said that we should like to export. And the exported product need not have all the characteristics. Like today, we buy the ultralight howitzer from the United States. They don't give us the sight, because you're not signed COMCASA. Are you saying COMCASA? They'll not give you out of the conflict, but then they will tell you, you can get it from Canada, you can get it from Scotland, you can get it from somewhere. And lastly, if not anything else, I just heard Baba Kalyani a few days back, and he was in an interview with Maroof Raza, and he said very clearly, for the ATAGS they had a panel board, and that was bought from Israel. It was not functioning correctly. Ultimately a local firm in Puna was told to make it, and they made it. Having said that, all that I can say is that over here, it's my duty to motivate all the industrialists sitting here, all the users sitting over here, all government officials sitting over here: please get into your mind, export is your survival. And with that I would like to conclude and take on any questions. I can find that Pawan is looking at the watch, and I'm sure that I would not like to exceed the time which he has given me. Thank you very much. I can take on any questions as Captain Pawan desires.

Thank you very much. There are a lot of questions, but I'd like to begin with a small observation. Since the defense technology needs long-term structure there — okay, okay. Since the defense technology needs long-term investment, its obsolescence is very high, and with low economies of scale. Hence the policy of maximizing indigenous production without a well-supported R&D policy or export strategy may not bring in the desired results. So moving from a 2 billion export market to a 47 billion export market requires a fair amount of policy integration in defense production and in the strategy of exports, and the incentives that have to be provided for R&D, because all R&D is never successful. What are your comments, General?

I couldn't agree with you more. I think right now the, what you call, exports are managed by the defense production, you know — that is the Ministry of Defence Production, who have already got many many other tasks. Firstly, we need a very very clear-cut policy that if we are to do exports, I think an export cell must be formed in the Ministry of Defence. We should go into all these places, and there is no doubt about it. That, I don't think the obsolescence is that high. It takes about 25 years for an equipment to be obsolete, and once it becomes obsolete, even then in the Indian Army or Indian Air Force we continue with it. Of course the results are not very good. We have continued with the MiG-21, and they came in around before the 71 wars, and we say about 67. Now today is how much? 55 years. 55 years — even a human being very rarely is surviving with little difficulties. So we have carried on with so many things. Well, but 25 years, but you're right.

But now, sir, may I request you to adjust your camera?

I'm so sorry, because one gets emotional and one gets out of the view of the camera. I often see that whenever movies are shot and all, and you find that the actors are constantly being told that you're not in the, you know, you're not in the camera. All that I would say is that, you know, see, these policies — we started in 2014, and we had, under the, what you call, not under the Sith, he was the coordinator — number of secretaries were made to make a number of policies of all these issues: how do you maximize defense, how do you have a proper R&D thing, and how do you link it with exports? But policy making — there are two ways of doing things. One is you make a policy and then you implement it. But the other way is that you, what you call, carry out what is known as a firefighting method. That is, I'm talking as a practitioner. You give a task to me, and that's the way the Indian Army does it — I'm sure the navy and the air force have also learned how to do it, but not to that degree. You're given a task and you're told to do it. So, well, I think the best way is now, possibly the present government is doing that, that you do the task and then after that you decide, okay, what are the issues to it. If you get down to doing all these in a very systematic way, I'm afraid things are not going to move. We believe that, what you call, in the Indian method, which is a developing country, it's better that you set a target, and then you say, okay, now let's go towards the target, and whatever other obstacles, you keep doing.

In that way, that's what we did for the Brahmos. After all, Brahmos was the naval project. We got it to the Indian Army. When we got into the Indian Army, everybody said it should hit a land target. If it's with a land target — the trials were only at sea — then we made it hit at Pokhran, and then we made it to hit at, what you call, we made the steep dive trial. We went to Andamans, got an island. It's very difficult to get even a target for such things, but we kept on doing it. But if we have to have a policy, if we've got to have the DRDO going, we've got to get everybody going, I am afraid that possibly this can be done in the United States, where everything is streamlined. In our case, where we are today doing things in a manner in which we are trying to maximize things, I think it's a good thing that we indigenize, in the sense that we are not saying, when we indigenize, we are not going to, what you call, do everything from scratch. Even today, none of the cars have an engine, to the best — except I think possibly the Tata Safari, that's what my research said, and I could be totally wrong — has an engine which is made in India. Even the Tejas, the engine is not made in India. The tank, the engine is not made in India. But if we don't do it ourselves, Pawan, the point is that you may try to get everything from abroad, and then they will tell you, okay, we will set up an industry, and they will only leave you at what is known as SKD, that is in a semi knocked down system. They'll come, and all that you'll be doing is using your screwdriver technology. Now that is no way. You have to come to the CKD, that is completely knocked down. Parts come, integrate it, develop the space. Unless you do that — and timetables, let me tell you, today the timetables which we have been able to achieve when we are under pressure, we are better than anybody else. Our manpower is going everywhere. You're yourself in the United States and solve so many issues. Why do they take you? Because you can perform under circumstances in unnavigated terrain. So all this is good, but good for an environment which today does not depend much on, what you call, shall I put it, which is already, things are streamlined. We are in a catch-up stage. We really cannot afford to be so detailed and so comprehensive. This is my submission to you, sir.

Thank you very much. I think the next question goes out to General Deepak.

General Chakravarty, you brought it up very well, but the fact is that as far as the public sector is concerned, I think the nation has gone up. As far as the navy is concerned, this Garden Reach shipbuilding, they're getting some contracts — contracts are ocean going ships, they're getting a contract for patrol boats, and this is based on international bidding. So I think now, because the Kochi shipyard has produced an aircraft carrier, so we have the capability. It's a question of, as you mentioned, money be given for R&D. Now I was reading somewhere a new acronym has come up, IDDM, which the government is now proposing. IDDM means indigenously designed, developed and manufactured. Now, the certain things which have come into being in this field is firstly the swarm drones. We have a sizeable industry in the private sector which is in the aspect of UAVs. I think they could be tapped, and they should take advantage of it. Then is the CQB weapons. I think some sort of a contract has been done with the Russians to make these CQB weapons. Besides that, some ammunition, long range, this is what they call it.

What's the question? What's your question?

The question here — the government has to give an impetus to the private sector in R&D, right here, that they should put in more. What do you feel of it?

Yes, firstly let me agree with you. You brought out IDDM, which is very correct, but let me also tell you, government has been giving an impetus. When you say government, I hope you know the user is also a part of the government. The Indian Army is also, Indian Navy, Indian Air Force, they're all a part of the government. You're talking of UAV — the first time I was tasked by an army commander to go to Bangalore was in 2001. Now, when we were together in opera, which is 2001, which is 21 years ago, I was sent to Bangalore by the army commander to attend the conference and to initiate people, particularly from the academia and from the private sector, to get involved. And then, we put it, the point which you are getting is, how much is the government involvement? Well, government involvement will come in if you today have in the Ministry of Defence an export, what you call, cell, you know, which is dealing exclusively with this defense exports. Today we are having the secretary of, what you call, this defense production, under whom he has got the public sector industries, he's got the looking out of the private sector, and also looking after exports. Exports is an entirely different subject, which the MoD and the Ministry of External Affairs have to deal with.

Well, all these items which you are talking today — if, let us say, drones — we have started in 2001, and you would agree drones is a very very simple technology. It's not a very complex technology. Let me tell you, having commanded a brigade of drones, if I may say that, in 2001, I must say that India is not — we are having drones in our army, and I commanded it in your presence, and that was in 2001 and 2002, which is almost about, shall we put it, now 20 years ago. Then you spoke about CQB weapons with Russia and all. Definitely we need to adjust with all these countries. It's a dependent world. I brought out very clearly, you mean to say in the United States they closed the border with Mexico because illegal immigrants were coming, what you call, on refrigerated trucks, and about 57 of them were caught in there. Believe me or not, as far as Texas is concerned, all the vegetables, potatoes and everything, it comes from Mexico. So as far as all countries are concerned, we are dependent on each other. I go to any shop, of course, I find today we pick up a shirt, and ultimately we show my wife: made in India, made in Bangladesh, made in China. I will say that US is not allowing Chinese goods — eighty percent of the good you pick up today, somewhere in a small way it will be written made in China. So I agree with you. While we have made all this, we need to make all this, because if we don't do it, then we will be just carrying out what is known as buying an imported item and just putting it in our army — not having the spares, not having the know-how, and not having the indigenous capability to deal with it. And as regards ammunition is concerned, I've said already, the private sector is being involved. The whole issue is that, as far as ammunition is concerned, definitely it's a very important issue. If only OFB was manufacturing it, but my view is that with the private sector coming in, I think the things would definitely improve. Any further, this thing you have — because it was a long question, so I tried my best to note down. If I missed out something, please let me know.

Thank you, sir. Last year we exported 5.56 ammunition to Australia, just for your information. The next question goes out to Sanjay Ricky.

Yeah, thank you for a great knowledge enrichment session, Major General. I had one simple question on exports, particularly as you said that holds the key for our defense as a whole. Can you throw some light, please, in terms of the proportion of exports now we have vis-a-vis the imports, and what we envisage in the future to really catch up and increase it to at a particular level? And particularly if you could just throw some light also, if you could just bring it down to each kind of forces which we have — land, sea and water, land, sea and air. So it will be, I think, adding to my knowledge. Thank you.

Oh, you've asked a very significant question. Details are only available — the details which you are asking certainly not available with me. Even if you are the government of India, they will take some time to give the details. It will take you some time, means it will take you — often we have to get these details. When I was asked these questions, without — the Indian Army has to get the details from the people who actually, what you call, receive these exports. It was easier to do that than to get it from Indian sources, all right, because it's much easier. Today, for example, we went to the Niagara Falls, and the lady was very kind to photograph us, you know, on the Niagara, and she happened to be from Hungary. So I asked them, have you seen the Suzuki car from India? They didn't know it was from India, but they said that Suzuki — I hope you know Maruti exports the highest number of cars to Hungary, okay.

So now you have asked me firstly about the proportion of exports to imports. What our exports today is, on 21-22, as I give you, 13,000 crores. Now this 13,000 crores, about say roughly today, now 8,000 crores make a billion. So it is working out to somewhere near, what you call, if you take it, if you pack it at rupees 80 a dollar, all right, so it works out to eight — so eight thousand crores a billion. So this should work out to somewhere around one point six billion. Now how much is the imports? Imports are huge comparatively. As on today the imports are huge, but we are doing, taking a lot of steps to reduce the imports, okay. Now I can only say this much. I can give you the figures. But now you want service-wise, which is because the army, navy or the air force. Undoubtedly, let me say, I think in terms of this thing, the navy has done the best. They have already made an aircraft carrier. They are on to many indigenous things. So there are imports, but if you say that they don't have imports, I think that would be wrong. You have got this multi-role helicopter, MH-60R, which has just landed from Dallas-Fort Worth, which, two of them are possibly in India now. Now this is coming from US. Similarly, we don't know for the aircraft carrier, which is — I don't think the changes are still being accepted. It would still be possibly one of the aircrafts, even the F-18 Hornet is under consideration. But navy has done the best. As far as the air force is concerned, well, the huge number of imports was the Indian Army, but we are gradually coming on. As far as, let's take, what are the indigenous items — because the imported items are all known to you. I mean, the Sukhoi is imported, the Rafale is imported, all right, all Russian equipment is there. But we've got the Tejas coming in, which is a nice thing. We should soon be having a transport aircraft which would be made possibly by Tatas, okay, which should be entering it over, which may be entering it.

And as far as the army is concerned, again a large number of indigenous equipment has entered. Now when I say indigenous, I will also call the ultralight howitzer, which is made by BAE Systems, to be indigenous, because Mahindra is manufacturing it, as I brought out to you. You see, we cannot — I mean, so I've carried out a detailed study on this subject. Let's say anything coming — even potatoes which are coming to the United States today, one potato cost one dollar, and it's coming from Mexico. So today if someone, what you call, stops Mexico, because possibly a lot of people, you know, try to come in, it would be difficult. Now what is the proportion it is going to be? Our aim is to certainly reduce and increase the export content and reduce the import content. That can only happen so with good technology coming in, with our involvement coming in, and I think the private sector — and more money has to be given for research, even to the private sector. See, the private sector would not like to spend money on research. Why should they be involved in spending? We have to get them motivated. So therefore more Make projects are coming in. The Make project is one in which the government invests right from the beginning, where the government becomes an investor into the private sector. That's what the United States does. So I hope I have partially answered a question. It's a very tough question to answer by anybody. You would agree such figures are not available. Of course, I am only giving you something which is in the open domain, right, but I can give you definitely some leads which I have done.

I just want one small question also, if you permit. Yes. It was regarding the core competence which we are finding in terms of enhancing our exports.

Oh, Sanjay, please ask your question again. There was noise coming in from one of the — okay.

It was on the core competence which India has today for exporting defense weapons, and what we are in the process of developing.

Well, actually, if you consider, as far as your camera is concerned, our competence is tremendous. I'll just say today, let's take missiles, satellites — and I'll treat satellites also as a defense equipment, because we have today now satellites which are doing defense operations, all right. Satellites you take today. Then artillery equipment: we have made the Pinaka rocket, we have made the ATAGS gun, even the ultralight howitzer Mahindra is manufacturing with, with license, what is, cooperation with the BAE Systems. Let's say we are manufacturing 910 guided missiles, ammunition — as you brought out, 5.56 ammunition is being sent to Australia. So our competence is tremendous. So you today go to any developed country, you see today the think tank — today I'm going to say there's a lady called Arati Prabhakar, who firstly headed DARPA. I don't want to now get down to the full form of DARPA; all of you know, it's a very knowledgeable and enlightened audience. Today Joe Biden has selected her as the chief scientific advisor. She was born in Nagpur; of course later on she moved to the United States. Educated Indians have a brain, I think nobody has — I'm sorry for saying so. The brain of Pawanjit, Sri Pal Singh, and see, Sanjay, nobody can match themselves. So competence is great. What they lack is possibly coordination and finances, which you're not aware of. You give them that, they can do anything. So I hope I've answered something.

All right, thank you. Thanks. The next question goes to John Cena. Where is John Cena?

Sir, we've talked about the defense industry and its potential for exports. How important is brand building and positioning as far as the defense industry is concerned? Have we been able to build any global brands in this sector? Will this emerge as a weakness as far as Indian exports are concerned?

I think it's very very simple to understand. We have certainly — we haven't been able to build any brand as such, and brand building, it doesn't mean that today when I enter, today let's say Kohl's — I'm in the United States currently — or in another department store of Loss, I only go in for Calvin Klein, or I go in for a Puma, or I go in for an Alligator. Certainly not. I'm just talking of all people now. Since I'm in America, I can answer this question a bit too well. I was in Austin, Texas, I just went to Toronto, I keep traveling here. Just, we went to Houston only two days back, so I keep going here, there. I don't see anybody looking for a Calvin Klein, I don't see anybody looking for a Puma. When I enter these stores, I am surprised to — so I find that there's so many Indian equipment lying over there, and it takes a lot of effort to see that. What is made in the, you know, United States, made in China, is quite visible, even Bangladesh. The Indian item, I think our Indian exporters have become very smart, they put it at some small place, because they know. So similarly, our aim is not to develop a brand or something. Why? Your equipment is good — who is your brand? Our brands are the Indian Army, the Indian Navy, Indian Air Force. If they can approve and function with an equipment — let me tell you, these three armed forces are actually today in combat, and business — I find no difference between a businessman's market — is the war, is the battle zone, and in our case we are in the battle zone. So, you know, so long as your equipment can stand the Indian Army, that's the best branding. We certainly don't have to be like Lockheed Martin or something — okay, this is Lockheed Martin, this is from Raytheon, this is from — I have dealt with all these companies, and let me tell you, when I start dealing with them, with due respect, they're very very scared to undertake trials in India. They get hundreds of rules. Very very difficult for these brands to succeed in Indian trials. So we don't get involved in it. We are very simple. We come in over here and we enter a shop and we decided — there's a little bit of noise, so, somebody unmuted himself, I see.

All right, so we have a question coming up from Sarajev.

Good evening. You answered two of my questions. It may sound that I'm going a little off the track, but I was reading in the newspaper that Chief of Army Staff is traveling to Bhutan, and I can see 90 soldiers sitting here, so I would like to know what is your views on that, and why it's happening, and how important that is.

Well, it's not a subject which deals with defense exports, but let me put it to you, I can answer the question very well. Bhutan is our dearest friend, ma'am. Bhutan is a place where the Chief of Army Staff must go. We even run a training team in Bhutan, and let me put it to you today, Bhutan is a great great, what you call, friend, and it understands what it is, and we import electricity from Bhutan. Even the city of Delhi receives electricity from Bhutan, all hydroelectric. And well, as far as Bhutan is concerned, there's another major concern which you are aware of, is with our border with China. We have been finding that the Chinese are not behaving in the way they should behave. There are possibly some transgressions taking place. So definitely the chief needs to go. As a matter of fact, I think the first visit of anybody of importance, be it a prime minister, president, foreign secretary — the first country they like to visit is Bhutan, must visit. Have you been to Bhutan? I see something here since —

Yeah, I've been closely associated with that country. You see, at some point, some time back, these so-called inimical groups like the ULFA and Bodo and what have you, they managed to get, when the pressure was put on there, they got into. So we have a very close relationship with Bhutan. The officers come for training to India, and we have a training team in Bhutan. So the association is very close, both in the field of economy, trade — but everything is going from India. So the trade is concerned, they don't produce anything, like what General Chakravarty said, that we import a lot of electricity from them. But there's a very close interaction. And secondly, you see, it does affect us, because the latest reports are that the Chinese are making villages on the eastern border of Bhutan. Now, as far as the border is concerned, there are three borders: the historical border, the trade border, and what the border is accepted by India as of now. We go — Bhutan and India, say, we go by the border which is on the map. The Chinese say it is a trade border of the historic border. So there's this dichotomy in the whole system. But we have very close relationship with them, both in trade and any economic growth. Thank you.

Anyway, let's stick to the subject of exports of defense equipment. General Sanjeev Chachra, would you like to ask a question or something, or make a comment? Unmute yourself, please.

Yeah, let me admit, I think it's a privilege hearing General Chakravarty, and we go a long way, spending our time when I was in the acquisition wing in the Ministry of Defence, and General Chakravarty was my co-partner in the artillery directorate, and we went through a lot of our, you know, export plans. Some part of the questions have been answered, but there are two things that are still in my mind. One, of course, is what are the, you know — the private industry is still very reluctant to get into the export of defense, because the control measures are still not very clear. You said it's being controlled by the defense production department of the MoD, you know, unlike what we have in the US, where only the strategic and special equipment and weapons are controlled by the State Department; the rest are allowed by the private industry to export to wherever they want, particularly in small arms, and in small arms than the ammunition base. We haven't yet defined our control measures so well, with the result that the people who want to actually get into, say, the ammunition mode are yet not clear on what would be the final outcome of this, you know, of the control measures that the government will adopt. The second question is that, you know, we wanted to do a lot of R&D with the private industry, and R&D is a long drawn process. I remember number of times we have had talks with the, you know, the Mahindra group and the Bharat Forge and the Tatas, you know, and the government is prepared to provide almost 80 percent of the investment in the R&D to the private industry, and they have to do the rest. And it's a long drawn process, it's a very long drawn process, and what happens mostly is that six out of ten times it doesn't succeed. I mean, after all, R&D is not — it may give you some fallout successful, but it may not succeed in the product that we are actually trying to. Is there some measures that are being taken now to support the system? Because unless we don't allow our academia to actually do our research for us, we will never be able to produce a very quality indigenous product.

Firstly, General Chachra, it's a great pleasure to have a question from you. Of course, I'm deeply associated with you and want to thank you for a deep association, which I learned so much from you, and you are so helpful, should I put it, in your appointment, and which has seen so much fructify. You yourself know what are the projects and how open you were to our suggestions. Very very nice and very very significant questions. Firstly, the control measures which possibly make the private sector very reluctant to come into the field. Undoubtedly, as I correctly said, you know, we are still in the process of, what you call, having a department itself. The defense production is involved. As you know better than me, you're a part of the Ministry of Defence — let me put it, but you are so close to us, we never felt that you were a part of the ministry, because we could walk in any time and we could ask you. But you would agree the same is not the case with the others, though you tried to build, what you call, a lot of rapport with the JS and with the others for us also. So, unless — because they are so involved with other things — unless we have an export, you know, you have possibly a secretary defense export now coming in, or somebody to that, where, you know, he looks after only this issue, will these private sectors and others —

Then the next is, the private sector has always been saying, see, the, what you call — you would agree that, what you call, whenever I met them, they have said that the Ministry of Defence has no time for us, and that has not been, what you call, as you brought it out in a very ornamental way — put in a very very ornamental way, you are bringing out that basically the private sector does not have a space for people to really, you know, be heard in the government corridors. They still don't have a place. So this is something which I think the current government — I heard the Raksha Mantri only about two days ago at FICCI. I mean, sitting over here, very far away for me to get in touch with, it was itself, what you call, a wonder by itself. But the fact that he constantly kept saying that the private sector must come in, the private sector. I heard Baba Kalyani, whom you know a bit too well — I heard him, and he said that, you see, like we have to get down to the Covid example, where we broke all silos. I just say, we broke all silos, and we started manufacturing masks, we started manufacturing ventilators, we started manufacturing the vaccine, and today possibly we are the biggest vaccine this thing. We have been able to control Covid, whatever you may say. The same thing — if we can break all the silos, if we can today, which I think, and do it, then possibly the private sector would be interested. And definitely, when you mean private sector, what you are implying is not enough for just a Mahindra, just for a L&T and just for Bharat Forge and all the big players to get involved. It is also to get the small time player involved, since, if you want to export, you can't just export only this. Let's say we can even export some small components. What is there in — I'd say, like these drones. They started in your time; you were actively involved in it. What is there in manufacturing it and exporting it? But it is so difficult, you would agree. You have been an army commander — for even the army commander's special financial powers, which you handled in a very sensitive command, which was the first to accept, because I was there only, and you at least started that. Today they are flying in eastern Ladakh, these private sectors. So yes, it's very very tough, and they always tell me, look here, we are here out of interest. Even Baba Kalyani says, maybe I belong to a military school in Belgaum, that's why I'm doing it. It is really — if you haven't reached that level, as you said, in the United States, where you have Lockheed Martin, you have Raytheon, if you're people coming in for the defense sector in a manner, because the systems exist. So it will take some time, but I think the only person who can make these systems come is the Indian Army. People like you and all have worked very hard. You all have tried to sensitize people, because if they get involved, and if the army commanders, the chiefs and all, they get involved — they are getting involved. I can see today that the vice chief came and released a book of mine on technology, and I had a good half an hour discussion with him, the current vice chief, and he said very clearly, we are just getting on to the private sector. That means if the vice chief is saying that, you'd agree that the senior officers within the army, who are the main, I would say, the other people who are going to see this whole thing through, are getting involved.

The next thing, you have very clearly said R&D is a long process. If R&D is a long process, even if you go to invest, people will not be interested in it. How do you make people interested in R&D, and that too in the private sector? I feel it's not very difficult. The private — if you break the silo, if today we can manufacture a ventilator, if we can manufacture a vaccine, whatever you say — if we can today, I think, I was just seeing the news over here, I'm in the United States, that the monkeypox vaccine is going to be introduced in India. So it's a question of how deeply we get them involved, how serious we are about them, and I think gradually there is a — and the first place where the seriousness starts is within the uniform itself. It's so nice to hear today the chief, the vice chief, the army commanders all talking about it, that the private sector must get involved in research. Yes, they may not be talking it to the degree — because you have a deep knowledge of it, having served so much into this field — but at least they have started talking. And I, as an optimist — you know me better than I know myself — you know that, what you call, I believe that these things will come. Because when we discussed these projects, you were there. You would agree, you were at that threshold when these things started coming in, when there was nothing. You were there, and you look at it today. It's because you had the vision, you had the capability, and you spread the word around, and you took it even wherever you went; you got your powers utilized for it. So I feel that this research part also, the private sector — at least I've heard Baba Kalyani, I've heard Mr Patil of L&T, I've heard the Tatas, they're the big players. The smaller players also, I meet them. I'm in some of the forums of, what you call, SITARA. I see the smaller players, they are all towards it. Right now I met a great person on cyber warfare, Mr Inca Singh. He sent me his presentation over here, which he wishes for the Raksha Mantri. So they are all playing to it, and the best thing he told me: even if government funding is not there, we will go to it. Look at the initiative. He's in Bangalore, he's dealing with cyber. He says even if we don't get funding, we will get the funding done — research in cyber warfare. So I am seeing a lot of positive strokes. I'm not saying it — you know me better than anybody else — but I can assure you that there is a change in the mindset everywhere. So thank you, General Chachra.

Does it imply that we have to be more pragmatic in our working of the GSQRs?

So, undoubtedly. GSQRs, you have to be very pragmatic. GSQRs, or joint service qualitative requirements, you have to be very pragmatic, and we are being pragmatic. You see, a lot of equipment is coming in.

I still have three more persons who have asked, who requested to ask a question from you. So if you can just make your answers brief, it'll accommodate everyone.

I'll do my best.

All right, may I go over to General SVP, please.

Thank you very much, and since you have asked General Chakravarty to be brief, I think I will also be brief accordingly. Really speaking, you know, the issue today, and to get on to export subsequently, the cornerstone lies upon our R&D, and for R&D today, what I understand, the private industry still looks for hand holding from the government. Our private corporate industry is pretty rich. They should have the will to make the nation, as the armed forces has the will to make the nation, strong. So this is my major point which I want to reinstate. You see, abroad, if you look at it, how they're dominating the world market in armaments — because it is the innovation, and innovation is coming through R&D. Second, you know, why are we not, whenever we are importing equipment, we should have the ability of putting in the contracts that we manufacture in our country as a cornerstone of our joint adventures. Thank you.

SVP sir, it's a great pleasure seeing you at such a big distance and seeing your lovely smile. It just, what you call, makes me feel very happy, and to take on your question. Well, undoubtedly, as far as the — undoubtedly, private, the R&D is the cornerstone, and we are working a lot to — believe me or not, our scientists are very good. They may not be from IITs — I am repeating what I am saying — they may not be possibly the toppers, but they are capable of delivering, because they have started adopting a model which is adopted internationally. Like if you are in the United States, sir, there's no question of, what you call, working time for a library. A library is open 24 hours. All that you have to do, you're going to swipe a card and get it. So you want to get into a lab, you can work 24 hours. There's no Saturday, Sunday. So I get in, work and go. So if that system almost started in some of the laboratories — I've seen DRDL, I've seen some of the missile laboratories in Hyderabad, and I've seen some of the scientists working. Even in the ARD, where we are making tremendous progress, I work very closely with them. Even in LRDE, where in the field of radars we are making great progress. You look at it, today the focus is great. And not only that, today, I'm going to say, not only, I'd say, shall we say, the public, the DRDO, but also the academic institutions like IIT, Indian Institute of Science, they are hand holding the private sector. My first visit to Indian Institute of Science was when I was, I think, as a general, or as, yeah, as a brigadier. I went there. I was tasked by the army commander for the UAVs — then you must get them started in Bangalore — and I went over there. I found all the projects of the Pentagon in the Indian Institute of Science. Today you will find that the projects of the DRDO are landing where. The DRDO, this is — they don't give us, we need funding. What does it make difference to us? So that is the first part. So the private sector is definitely getting the hand holding. I was lucky to meet even many many senior officers in the army, and they have all told me that they are doing handholding. I said, you must do it, and believe me, they have assured me. I'm in touch with them. I do meet them, and being in CLAWS, they come and I release some books and all. Possibly they are able to give in this, and we are handholding.

The next point which you brought out is, what you call, the manufacturers. As far as they are concerned, they should be given a little bit of, what you call, impetus and priority. Undoubtedly so. We must give the — we are giving the private sector their recognition in all ways. We are trying to motivate them, and the start point has been the Indian armed forces. I'll just give you — so you belong to the arty directorate. When Pinaka had to come in, there was a lot of opposition, but believe me, all of us who are involved with us — I'll see, all of us means there's so many of us — we said that this project must get through. When it got through, then again that was within the armed forces, that why should we have two systems, why should we have Tatas and L&T? I remember saying that we have got Jonga, we've got a jeep, we've got a Shaktiman, we've got, what you call, TMB. I mean, these were the vehicles at that time; many of them are now in the museum. But they were the vehicles — we didn't have even the ALS. I said, well, the EME, the aim is, there's a lot of difficulty in maintenance. I said, if there's a difficulty in maintenance, then we will have Tatas and L&T at the compositions, and they said, we will be there, General.

So just sort of cut your answer so that, you know, I can —

Very very sorry. I know, I mean, going into dinner time, and I'm not eating my breakfast as yet, so I also like — okay.

If you — General, Admiral, can you please come in and ask your question?

Yeah, no, thank you so much, and General Chakravarty, actually it's fine. I would like to supplement some of the things you said. One of the things that navy did very early — we had a design bureau right in the 50s, soon after, you know, the Indian Navy came into being, and that helped us to design ships, and today we are designing everything from small patrol craft to aircraft carriers, submarines and even nuclear submarines. Now that has helped us in a big way, plus navy was very actively involved, which is why I would say two big success stories apart from this was: we developed the underwater sonar, which was developed by the NPOL, and there was Commodore Paulraj who was actually involved in it, who actually designed it. So these are big ticket items. Of course there were delays. While we supported the ALH very early, it has taken its time. But when you talk of exports now, there was earlier — government was not too much pro for exporting things, or whatever it was. But now, if you, for example, if you export a ship, it fetches you a lot more money. So, you know, once we are able to export — now we started giving some to Philippines and some others — if you give, say, our Khukri class or equivalents, or you going for a bigger ship export, that will fetch us a lot of money. And just one last point, which, since you mentioned Dr Kalam — one of the things he said is that while we go for indigenization of design, we also, even the services, we need to be pragmatic, because he used to say, you look at 10 brochures and put your QR of a particular item. Now you're not even sure whether many of those claims made by some of these big companies are actually working. So we need to be more practical in what we want to produce and what we want to design. Thank you.

Well, I would like to really totally agree with Admiral Murray on all points. As a matter of fact, when I worked, I made the Indian Navy my standard, and Indian Air Force. I tried to transform the Indian Army to Indian Navy. Today we are lucky, we have imitated you — as I said, we copy, imitate, catch up and innovate — and we have an Army Design Bureau. So we have imitated you. The air force has the AOM. So since I used to walk around, you know, as a general, you know, sitting over there, believe me, I had to walk to the naval this thing — how are you getting it? And then finally we got the Brahmos, which is a naval project. I want to share with you how much I tried to transform the Indian Army.

Absolutely true. That's where we got the ideas from.

Yeah, it says absolutely right, sitting here. And the next thing — so I must say that, what you call, there is no doubt about it that a ship today gets you more money. But at the same time, I would put it like this: just to look at one ship is not enough. I think every small component — I would focus on, you know, the MSMEs, not just on one aircraft, what you call, one submarine being given to somebody or something. Let's focus on every small item, and let's, may the focus be more, let us say, in more numerous areas. Which includes — I remember, I just got a naval officer who was a good friend of mine, Admiral Chima, and he was the SISK. So he told me, sir, I must say to you that it's so easy to deal with the navy and the air force, but when I deal with the army equipment, my eyes have opened, because the inventory is so huge. But today if we don't take on to that equipment — let's say I was in Vietnam. I, sir, did mainly the naval tasks. Today you'd agree Vietnam has already purchased the, what you call, offshore vessels. The next thing, the Vietnam got the MiG-21 service. I made sure that the spares of the T-55s, spares of T-55, which I saw in 512 Army Base Workshop, land in the Vietnamese, on maybe just 10 million dollars. But for me, that, as a colonel, 10 million dollars mattered a lot. And that's why, Admiral sir, we cannot today look at things purely that this is a big ticket and this is a small ticket. Definitely, and I totally agree with you. We admire the Indian Navy for what it's doing. The Indian Army has been absolutely, what you call, following what you are trying to do, or what the air force is trying to do, and we have never looked at anything in any other way but the way you say. Thank you, sir.

All right, the last question — where is the last question — goes out to you, so kindly unmute yourself.

Thank you. With a lot of watching and elan, I don't really have a question. I just have a very generic observation, and the observation is that if we were having the same kind of discussion 30 years ago, there would have been a lot of skeptics, a lot of them. I remember when the Arjun tank came in, everybody was craving on this issue that nothing really is manufactured in the country, it has all been imported. But again, what General Chakravarty brought out very succinctly was the fact that the major issue was integration, and that is one thing that the government of India has to see: that whilst we are going ahead full steam in many directions, what we require to do is to ensure that there is policy coherence. That is what puts everything together. And like I said, I'm glad that 30 years down the line, we have been able to churn out a lot of equipment which is not only made in India but is exported widely, and it only speaks volumes of the scientific community, both the private and the public sector, and all of the people sitting here who have been involved in this. My compliments to everybody, and I really don't have any question, Chucks. Thank you very much. Very well done.

Okay, thank you, sir. I must really thank you. I've learned a lot from him. Prabhan sir, we were together and we were colleagues together. So he was the Colonel GS of the armored division when I was a commanding officer, and very very fine interactions, and learned so much from him and from the GOC. I'll only say that, and what he has said, every word is a word of God. You know, we keep learning from him on a day-to-day basis, because I interacted with him very closely nowadays.

And I must compliment you, General Chakravarty, for the talk that you've given, for the simple reason that I have never exceeded time by 40 minutes on any NISSMAT webinar, and this is the first one where we've gone over 40 minutes, and we're still okay to go for another 20, should we go on. But I think, thank you very much, and now I'd like to hand the meeting over to the president to conclude the session.

The very fact that he never allows — if there are about seven o'clock is to handle, he'll say seven five, sir, that's all. Now it is over half an hour, and that shows how scintillating for the discussion, or how the erudite scholar made his presentation. The main point which he has gone, which has struck me very well, is that no survival without export. That is one point he says. I said there's a lot of emphasis, a lot of consideration at all levels. Then he has very nicely brought out that how from imitation to catch up to innovation — he has very beautifully brought out how the Chinese do it, and how the ultimate is not necessarily the state where you go to the innovation. You start from A to B and C, and China is doing that. They imitate, and after imitation the other two steps, and then they come to evolution. That's another very good idea which he has given. Self-reliance — again, this point is, self does not mean manufacturing everything yourself. That's a very very significant point. Self-reliance means that producing something, maybe from where you are taken in there, and then produce an integrated fold which is useful. Very interesting point, a very nice smile which I have part of. Then he has very nicely pointed out that the scandals is not here and there. It's a question of corruption on the part of the people. The mentality has to change. It's nothing to do as far as the exporter's concerned. I'd like to — that's not going, because already, yeah, we are over that short time.

One point, sir, is that all the indications that India has moved towards a part of large large-scale sustainable development. Still now, it's a question of — still, what I'm saying is more important, because how do you integrate, and how the government thinks, the policy, what should be there. There is perhaps a requirement to reduce and mitigate India's dependence on the foreign requirement. How to — I mean, say, at one side we say, all right, yes, we have to have the various things in our country and then produce ourselves also, but how India's dependence on foreign countries, particularly military hardware, should be reduced to the maximum. I'm talking in terms of the Russian and of Ukraine, and how it implicated India's stand. It just could not say vehemently and could not condemn Russia, for reasons all of the best known to all of us, that we are depending a lot of export import from Russia. It is now reported that the US government is considering about 500 million defense equipment package for India. How and when it will materialize cannot be assessed at this stage. India needs something, a reliable and very affordable sort of pipeline of weapons of good quality, decent quality, which should arrive quickly enough to return to any aggression, or to retaliate to any aggression. So all these points just come to my mind. Despite all our good efforts, despite very very elaborate and very very nice discussions we had, still we have to think that, oh, there could be a pipeline, affordable pipeline, of course a reliable pipeline of weapons, with decent quality, we should arrive as quickly, and are manufactured as quickly as possible, are designed and manufactured as well as possible, so as to return any aggression which we may at the moment be foreseeing or thinking that may happen.

I'd like to point out one point from the personal experience of mine. In the heydays of terrorism and counter-terrorism in Punjab, we did not have the bulletproof jackets, we didn't have the bulletproof vehicles. Lo and behold — I am only trying to support the argument given by Chakravarty — we approached some people, so-called jugadu, as we call in our Punjabi, that they should make some jugaad, so that the people are getting killed, our tana and our researchers, whenever they went and make our vehicles attacked, and they were killed. I don't know, bulletproof — so we approached some people in the hana, and they done that, and lo and behold, within about — now they were not very sustainable, but within a period of three months, with the efforts of Mr KPS Gill — and I was operational IG — we were able to have some number of bulletproof vehicles, which was produced on the vehicle which were already there. Somehow they put certain things, the sheets, the porter, whatever it is, but it saved life for many people. They also devised for us a bulletproof tractor, so that we could go into the game, in the big field where they're hiding, parasiting, and our five staffs are going, as a tank is going inside a tractor. So we have got that sort of, you know, initiative, that sort of intelligence in our people, and they can do it. Question is how much incentive we provide to them, as nicely pointed out, with some people. There's no doubt that our entrepreneurs, private entrepreneurs, hold hands with the army in our mission, but the private entrepreneur also needs that his hands are held by government in the stages where they are not able to manage, because it's all small, and when they're small enterprises, they can go ahead only if there's a hand holding by the government.

With these words, I do not want to go further, because it's very satiation — this is, unless we may keep it as intimidating as, the taste should remain. So therefore I do not want to do further details. I'm only very very thankful to General Chakravarty for having agreed to our request and having made his presence here with us despite his busy schedule — he is awake at the moment — and I'm thankful to all the other delegates who have interacted so nicely at this point. And thank you very much for extending the session as a moderator, because the scissoring of the — to cut the session and see the section is your duty, and you allowed it to go about half an hour more. Thank you very much, everyone. Thank you daddy, and good night.

Thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you, Chuck. Thank you so much. Thank you, sir. Thank you, sir. Good night, sir.

Okay, I just want to talk about the next webinar that we're having. Yeah, this is again an interactive session, and this is by another distinguished general. He's going to toss the implication of growing aggression by China — the implication of China's growing aggression. What would be the implication, maybe not only on India but other countries — all the implications will be discussed, and this is scheduled, and trusted us, and time is in sixth to summer. And I'm very sure that those who have attended the session today will appreciate that we always bring on the fore very very intelligent and very very sharp scholars who know their subject well. So we wait for president presentation, our introduction, on prestige at 6 pm. All the delegates will make a note in their diary.

All right, thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Hi, Sanji. Thank you. Hi. Hi, sir. Metal two eight four six five six. Square four six five six.