Citizen As Eyes And Ears Against Prevailing Corruption In the Society

Hello ladies and gentlemen, this is a very good evening, and thank you all for joining us at the 129 edition of a webinar on Citizens As Eyes And Ears Against Prevailing Corruption In The Society. I extend warm welcome to both our eminent speakers and other guests, and I'm sure that the delegates who have come to join us shall benefit and enjoy the deliberations. As a president of NISSMAT, let me say a few words about NISSMAT itself. This was established in the year 1990 and started as a training institution in the field of private security, safety management and applied technology. With the passage of time, we started conducted courses for the ex-defense personnel for their second career in the private security industry.

We also had the privilege of conducting courses in tandem with the John O'Neill University on fire fighting. In the recent past, decided to become the foremost corporate training institution and a think tank organization in the field of security, safety and applied technology, has established four wings: NISSMAT Forum to organize webinars, seminars, conferences, interactive programs, debates and declarations; we have the NISSMAT Academy on its education to conduct virtual training programs; then there's a NISSMAT Enterprise, we intend to undertake audits and verifications all over the globe by establishing alliances and partnership. The ultimate is, we want to establish it very soon, that is NISSMAT Foundation, to undertake welfare and social work for the society at large, with particular reference to security and safety of the citizens.

With the, having said few words about NISSMAT, let me introduce the chairman, Captain, the chairman of NISSMAT. He took a voluntary retirement from the parachute management at a very young age and he jumped into the business career. Very warm person, very affectionate, and he has the knowledge of his subject very well. Whatever he deals with, he has a knowledge of that; he tries to get into details of the subject. A person of impeccable manners, a very thoughtful and inspiring leader. He has created a business group known as Holding, which has offices at multiple locations in India and abroad.

He has that continuous perseverance and risk taking attitude, and at times learning from fate falls. This has helped him to grow and evolve himself into a position of prominence in the business world. He's the past president and a former chairman of Council of International Investigators, USA, and is the body of Malcolm Thompson.

Introducing the subject. Today's subject, as somebody writes in the initial stages when we're having an informal hair chat somewhere, it's a very interesting subject. Indeed it is very interesting. Something, the role of citizen in fighting corruption is indeed very important in view of rampant press corruption prevailing in the society at large. The participation of citizens can provide an opportunity to the citizens also to influence the, and help the anti-corruption enforcement agencies in the state. However, the participation of the citizens has to be very dynamic, as grafton offered bypasses and circumvents the laws and rules, and it needs a lot of dynamism to keep it under check.

Adverse effect of corruption is well known to all. One of the most important is, there is a very very disproportionate impact particularly on the poor and most vulnerable sections of our society. It erodes the trust of the people in the government, at least in creating a sort of fragile society where violence and conflict can happen every now and then. We know various forms of practice, like red tape, misbehavior of the officers, squeezing the floor for personal benefits, and asking for gratification to perform routine duties — this is their duty as such — and to award contract to favor friends, to give recognition and awards to the underway, and also have their own best interests wherever they give.

About eyes and ears of the citizens who watch all these forms of corruption are very important. All of us belonging to any class who do not expose corruption when it comes to our knowledge are, I say, I feel, a part of the corruption, and should be made accountable for facilitating corruption. In terms, if we pay attention to this, a lot of evidence can get generated through citizens to curb corruption or at least deal with corruption. We can also create citizens friendly forums, city friendly platforms, to get this information. The eyes and ears of the citizens can no doubt the weak points in the system.

Fighting corruption means not only a proactive approach, it also needs stringent reactive measures. When allegations of fraud, when allegations of corruption are substantiated, there should be no compromise at all to avoid stringent punishment to the guilty. The major areas of corruption include public requirement, loopholes in the state-owned enterprises, weak administration and unequal delivery systems. The participation of system as such through social media can be very important. Citizens can perhaps have their stories enough anonymously on some social media platforms, like I Also Paid Bribe, yeah, actual payment of bribe, etc. This documented material would help in dissemination of information to the government agencies to deal with corruption.

Active participation, individuals and groups of the civil society and community, can raise public awareness. I am of the view that some incentives probably can be provided to the people who give such information, so that we get much more information. A brief people power program can be initiated in every society, which undermines the democracy and rule of law. It would, I would like to submit that grassroot movements against corruption can create political will and probably push the government to adopt policies. With these words, I pass on the session to the moderator, Captain.

Thank you, Mr. C. I'd like to acknowledge the presence of participants today from the following countries. We have participants from India, Spain, Pakistan, Senegal, Singapore, Uganda, UK, USA, Zambia, New Zealand and Lagos. We are at this point of time streaming live on Zoom and YouTube. I'd like to acknowledge the sponsors for the event today, which is Tax Course, which is an assessments platform; India Skills Private Limited, which is an assessment organization; Premium Consulting and Investigations, which does pre-employment screening and general investigations; Premiershield Private Limited, which is a bandpass security company; and JMD Cargo, which assists people in sending cargo overseas.

A word to all the participants today: please try and have your video on during the webinar, it's nice to see your faces. Please have your cell phones switched off so that there are no side distractions. Please prepare to ask questions and put them in your chat so that I can ask you when the time comes.

A word about our president. Mr. Sipal Singh is a masters in English literature, and he served the Government of India in senior police assignments across the country. He raised the Rapid Action Force in India and was its first chief. He later raised and headed the Internal Security Academy, a central police academy at Mount Abu in the state of Rajasthan in India. During his service he has been decorated with several medals of distinguished, for distinguished services, by the president of the country and various organizations. He's also got a Sena Medal, which speaks volumes for his work with the armed forces.

Post-retirement, he's worked as a consultant with Tata Iron and Steel Company, where he streamlined the security and vigilance of their cold field divisions. He was the chairman of the technical committee of Quality Control of India, which formulated the standards for star rating of private security companies. He was involved in developing the curriculum for private security guards training under the Security Sector Skill and Development Council. He was the head of the committee we designed and worked out national occupation standards for the training of private security guards, and qualification pack and national occupancy, occupation standards for the firefighters. Post retirement in 2009, the President of India recognized his services as the Security Personality of the Year.

He serves as the advisor to the Asian Professional Security Association, the Indian chapter, and is the honorary directorate general to the centralization of private security industry in India. Mr. Sipal's face is well known in India as a dynamic security professional, and is frequently called upon to share his views on various subjects connected to homeland security on national news channels.

I now have the distinct honor and privilege to introduce Mr. Karnal Singh. I'd like to acknowledge that this is one of the best CVs that I have sort of read out now in the last two years. They said Colonel Singh is an officer from the Indian Police Service. He's an electrical engineer, a post graduate in computer science from IIT Kharagpur, an MBA with specialization in finance, a law graduate from the Salgaocar Law College in Goa, and a diploma in information technology from Pune. While in service, his services were recognized by the President of India in the year 2002 and 2008. He has been a sportsman of an exceptional caliber, having been awarded as the best sports person and athlete while in college and the police athletic events.

He is the author of a book titled Batla House, based on true facts, as he was involved with the encounter that took place in New Delhi in 2008 in Batla House. He supervised the money laundering cases for Vijay Mallya and Nirav. In 1996 and 97 there were a series of blasts, 42 in all, that rocked Delhi. He investigated the cases that led to 22 modules of Lashkar-e-Taiba being arrested from all over the country. In 2005 he investigated the bomb blast in Liberty and Satyam cinemas of Delhi; the investigation led to several Babbar Khalsa terrorists being arrested.

Again in 2005, there were three blasts in Delhi, one in Sarojini Nagar, Gandhi and Govindpuri. 67 persons died, 200 got injured. He cracked the case within seven days, which led to the arrest of several LeT operatives. He investigated the tragedy where 59 persons had lost their lives. He arrested Ramesh Sharma, an operative of Dawood and Abu Salem, in New Delhi. He burst the bablu silvasu. Again, under his watch several arrests of deadened criminals has taken place. He aided the computerization of Delhi Police and computerized recruitment of constables, introduced non-clonable ID cards, established cyber labs in Delhi for Delhi Police, and connected the Enforcement Directorate with cyber labs across India. Ladies and gentlemen, I present to you Mr. Karnal.

Thank you very much. Leading top advocate of the country, Shri Sipal Singh, president of NISSMAT, Captain Awanji Aloo Aliyah, chairman NISSMAT, and the participants. First of all, I must thank Shri Sipal Singh ji, my senior, who has invited me to talk on this. I was telling him that this is a very unique topic, fighting, fighting against corruption in the country, citizens as eyes and ears. I have not seen this topic previous to this, sir.

I remember around three years ago I had visited the All India Institute of Medical Sciences in Delhi, and that is imprinted on my mind. I saw the patients waiting, patients queues, and their relatives waiting and sitting on the roadside. I felt very bad, in the sense that we are not able to provide the proper place for the patients to sit, even in the AIIMS. What could be the reason? Is it corruption? Is it mismanagement?

So I remember in 1993, when I was working in the district, northwest district, one senior person, he used to visit me. He was around 75 years of age, and I am talking of 1993. He would say there are four types of corruption. One is nazarana. He says, in the past what used to happen is, the person will go to the senior officer's place, give him some gift without any work, in the hope that no injustice would be done to him, and that was called nazarana. He says, then what started is, you do some help to somebody — it may be totally legal help — he comes to your house with a sweet or with a bouquet; that is called shukrana.

After some time, the officers started demanding money, saying that for doing your work we have to do very hard work, as important is not paying to them, and he said this is mahantana: I am working for you, you please pay for. He says, now though it has started, if you don't give the money and not do your work. And from 93, now lot of water has flown. I have seen in the Commonwealth Games, where I was asked by the home minister to go to the Commonwealth office and take some files and find out what is happening.

There is a shlok in Gita 3.12. I'll just say that, and the meaning is, when we do, or when we do our karma, when we do something for the society or something for the other people, we get results of that. He says, once we get something from the society, if we do not give back — he's talking about deva, but I am converting into the society — if you do not give it back to the society, he says such people are thieves. This I read long back, and what I understood with this is, if we take away right of somebody, if we do not give right to somebody which belongs to him, we are basically corrupt. So corruption for me is not only taking money for the work. Corruption for me is for not doing my duty for other people, and that is very very important in life, because if I am not giving promotion, in timely promotion to somebody, I am corrupt.

Now there is a huge impact of corruption. I'll just briefly touch upon that. One of the development issues: we were investigating National Rural Health Mission case of Uttar Pradesh. The 80 of the funds given to, given by the government to the state for purchasing the equipments of the hospitals, for providing facilities in the hospitals, were eaten away by the minister, the bureaucrats and the doctors, and certainly the people who are, people who go to the hospital, they were not getting the facilities.

I'll give a very interesting case of this fertilizer subsidy. In Enforcement Directorate this file came to me for closure, but then I examined it. I said, before closing it I should examine. So what I found is very interesting. The Government of India imports the fertilizer through the private agencies, like IFFCO and others. Now the person in IFFCO, through his son, opened one office in Dubai. Now what happens is, when India is trying to procure it, and they float the tender for procurement, the rates goes high internationally. But by that time his son's, in fact, the companies in Dubai would already purchase at a cheaper rate and then sell at a higher cost rate to the country.

I examined that. If something is costing around 40 rupees in a normal time, when the India issue standard, it will cost around 80 rupees. 50 percent was the subsidy. So I calculated, the farmers, farmers are not getting any subsidy. The whole subsidy is going to these fertilizer companies. So I decided to investigate that case. That case is under investigation even now; I don't know what is happening. But the question is, what is happening? We are saying we are giving so much subsidy to the farmers, but actually it is not reaching to them.

And then we take example, bad money drives out good money — there is a concept. Now anybody who is a bad money, when he is doing anything, suppose he is doing a business, his interest basically is to hide that money, hide the origin of that one. And the person who is doing business with his own money, the white money, he wants profit in that. Now in that competition in the market, certainly who will survive? The person with the black money; the person with the white money is going to fail in the market. Even take example of disinvestment of public sectors. Who can say that I'll pay the most? The person with the black money.

Real estate prices, they go — I have a plot in Mohali, I wanted to sell it two years ago. The people who wanted to purchase, they wanted to give me 40 as a cash. I did not sell it. Even my batchman told me, this is a procedure in the real estate: it is a black money part comes. It is still not being sold today, because I said I will refuse to take the black money in that. Then what happens to this? The taxes are to be paid. The people who are not earning the black money, they are not paying taxes, and the government needs funds, government needs revenue. So this tax liability shift to the law-abiding citizens; they have to pay more taxes.

Beyond that, now the people who are black money, you have corrupt money, they have started penetrating into the upper world. They will contest elections, they will come to the Parliament, they will formulate laws. For whose benefit they will formulate laws? That we have to understand. Then I will go further: corruptive penetration of anti-corruption agencies. If the agencies which had to take care, which had to catch the corrupt people, themselves become corrupt, what will happen to this? Briefly I have touched upon the impact of corruption.

But this eyes and ears scheme which is proposed actually caught my eyes, the reason being, in Delhi Police we had eyes and ears scheme for collecting intelligence, and this scheme helped us. Particularly when the blast took place on 13th September 2008 in Delhi, three bombs were detected through the ears and eyes scheme of the public, in which, and they were diffused. So this scheme is an excellent scheme. Can we have parallel to containing the corruption? We have seen Anna Hazare agitation, and we have seen ultimately nothing has happened. I know Mr. Dushyant, the way I have been following him — when he speaks in the Supreme Court, particularly on corruption, on some judges he will be speaking — he knows better than what is happening in the country.

The question is how to implement this. The first issue I feel is about the implementation stage: whom to report? That is one. Could we have one agency which can keep people names anonymous after getting evidences from them? Today you give information in any of the agencies, his name is known to the people against whom he has made complaint. We are totally porous agencies, and names of the people who would be coming forward is not concealed.

I remember a case in Delhi. One doctor being acted as a whistleblower, and he lodged a complaint against supply of medicine in Delhi. A FIR was registered in the anti-corruption branch of Delhi Police. But after some days, interestingly, a team of one anti-corruption agency — I have not named them — that came to the hospital, and the accused of the other case was with the team. This doctor was very popular, so he was standing outside with the patient's relatives. So this accused went there and started beating the doctor, saying he is the person. Now immediately somebody made a call at hundred number. So that anti-corruption agency had come with some money to be put on that person, but because there were other people, there were, police had come also.

So what they wrote in the FIR was very interesting. They wrote that this person took the bribe giver on the truck side, therefore witnesses could not see that any money was paid, and this man with the money, that vanished. They registered the case, searched his house; the thing was found in his house also. The court immediately gave pain to him. On these facts, that's when court came to know. I spoke to one of the senior person in that agency when they took the remand, and I told that please try to see that the money is not implanted on it, because actually he has not taken any money. Ultimately this person was acquitted, basically discharged from the court. But what happened to him? His whole life changed, because he lodged a complaint.

So how do we protect the witnesses? How do we protect the people who are making complaint? We have a order from the Supreme Court, which starts of Supreme Court guidelines actually, which says that for the witness protection, that in each district there will be a committee. But I have not seen any committee in any of the districts. Supreme Court has issued guidelines, but not being implemented. Toothless guidelines, I would say. Then this leads to fear of backlash. We do not have any law at the moment to protect the whistleblower, to protect the witnesses.

I feel the proposition is an excellent one. If the people can come forward and can give information about what is happening in the society, the corrective measures can be taken. But implementation issues are there, the fear of backlash issues are there. How to handle them? We have to find a solution in that direction. With this I'll stop. Thank you very much. Jai Hind.

Thank you very much, sir. And now I have a distinct pleasure and honor to introduce my friend Mr. Dushyant Dave. Dushyant is a senior advocate and has been practicing law for over four decades. He was a member of the National Legal Services Authority during 2004-2008. He has served on the board of leading international arbitration associations and has been the president of the Supreme Court Bar Association for three terms. He regularly defends the public causes, both inside and outside the courts, and contributes regularly to op-eds in leading newspapers and magazines on national legal and constitutional issues. Ladies and gentlemen, I present to you Mr. Dushyant Dave.

Good evening, everybody. Mr. Karnal Singh, president Mr. Sipal Singh, distinguished friends who have joined the program to participate, ladies and gentlemen. It gives me a great pleasure to be here, but I must say it, the subject that we have chosen, you know, is so difficult to even deal with, that it gives me, I would say, an extreme sense of disappointment in even dealing with it. Corruption is an international phenomena. It's not confined to India, and so long as human beings are there, corruption is bound to be there. I mean, corruption is not a new phenomena. It's there for centuries, you know, for thousands of years corruption has been in society.

A country like India, with a population of 1.3 billion, with limited resources, with abject poverty amongst a very sizable section of society, I think has to face corruption in a very very different way, and must have zero tolerance towards it. Sadly, corruption is treated, is on a very very low priority when it comes to, you know, the executive and the police in the country. Citizens perhaps would be the last group of people who can really take a kind of a crusade against corruption, because there is an atmosphere of fear in the country, and unless and until you can remove that atmosphere of fear, it is going to be well nigh impossible for citizens to really come to, you know, fight corruption openly.

You have to ensure that, as Mr. Karnal Singh, with his vast experience and his outstanding career, has himself said, that it is very difficult to protect those who are willing to come forward and file complaints, or those who are willing to give evidence, because there is no way one can protect them. Our law is, I would say, singularly incompetent to protect either the whistleblowers or the complainants in given cases. So they suffer in many ways.

My feeling is that, and it's too general, I think, all of you know, you have vast experience, each one of you deals with, you know, lives on a day-to-day basis, each one of us sees our experiences with our families, with our friends, with our neighbors. It's really something unbelievable what has happened to this country, and I'm sure it is happening in other countries as well. Take for example people who are in public life, from a serpent to a minister. You see them, you see their lifestyles, you see the lifestyles of their families. They are all leading lifestyles which are beyond known sources of income, during their office or even post retirement from their offices. Nobody can say anything about it. Nobody can question about it. Everybody assumes that, you know, they have some sources of income, but they have none.

Most of these people who come in public life, at least in elected offices, are, most of them I would say, or substantial majority of them, are professional politicians. They are not people who are successful in any walk of life, of being either being a successful lawyer, or a doctor, or an engineer, or a chartered accountant, or a businessman, or in any other, successful farmer, who comes forward to really work in public life. These are hardcore professional politicians, who from the word go, from their college days, decide to plunge into politics, and they go on to hold various offices. And suddenly you find that their families are living lives of kings. Their children are moving around in, you know, Mercedes cars or BMW cars. They have fancy homes. They have all kinds of investments in properties all over. Their marriages are spent with crores and crores of rupees. But we can't do a damn thing about it. We all shut our eyes to it.

Same thing is with, you know, those bureaucrats, the police officers, many judges. In almost every walk of life you see today that people are openly leading lives beyond their known sources of income. As Mr. Karnal Singh says, that they don't pay their taxes, and the burden falls on those who are willing to pay taxes honestly. I'll tell you, in legal profession there is a substantial number of lawyers who are not paying their taxes as they should be paying. So it's something which is really, I mean, part of our now DNA, part of our blood. We are not able to really get out of it.

Now what can citizen do in a situation like this? He knows that when he has anything to be done in the government, it is, I mean, it's not that it is impossible. There are people — I have come across large number of people — I have, in 42 years, I have never had to pay a penny to anyone, be it my income taxes or my other permissions that I may have sought for my homes or for my other investments or anything. But that's because people also know that if you are dealing with somebody who is himself leading an honest life, they would think 50 times before making a demand on you of some kind of a favor. So it's something which is, I would say, reciprocal.

But otherwise, people are now finding it extraordinarily difficult to get anything done from government offices, and government today is only present in our lives. There is nothing we can do without government help. We can't virtually even breathe without government help. So it is something where, what is the solution? Is law is there? Take for example, whom do they charge under Prevention of Corruption Act? A conductor, a police constable. Have you ever seen a top police officer, top bureaucrat, or a top judge, or a top minister being ever charged under corruption? It happens rarely, and whenever it happens, it happens because of political vendetta. It only happens out of political vendetta, not because we want to really fight corruption.

So the difficulty is that the existing laws are there, that the willingness, the will to take action against anybody is — I mean, I ask a question. Why should you fasten responsibility on me as a citizen to talk about, to bring to the notice of the police authorities or anti-corruption authorities or Lokayuktas as to who is corrupt and what is happening in a particular department? Are they not aware? Is there no accountability within the government, within the judiciary, within bureaucracy, within the police department, where they can see what is happening within their systems? They know what's happening, but nobody is willing to take any action or initiative. Everybody turns a blind eye to it. Everybody turns a blind eye to it, and that's really the saddest commentary.

Because, I mean, citizens, it would be very difficult for them to become ears and eyes, because citizens are, I would say, defenseless. They are helpless. They don't want to go through the kind of harassment which can be unleashed on them by this corrupt people, who have lots of access to all kinds of illegalities which they can launch against these innocent citizens who might dare to complain against them. So I personally feel that, yes, we may talk about citizens being eyes and ears. Citizens may perhaps even have a duty, as Mr. Karnal Singh says, that we should have a duty, but how many of us can really discharge that duty?

It's extremely funny as to what is happening. I remember, once, long back, some 30 years ago or 35 years ago, in Ahmedabad, there was a person who was lying on the road. It was a hit and run case. I took him to the hospital and we could save his life, and the police named me as a witness in that, and the judges insisted I go and give evidence. So, you know, I mean, luckily I wrote to the judge and said that this is what it is, police has wrongly named me as a witness, I was not a witness, he was lying on the road. And then the judge understood, but because I was a lawyer, the judge, out of sheer respect for me, decided to drop that summons against me. Otherwise the non-bailable warrant would have been issued against me.

So I am, give us feeling that it is, it's not really, to my mind — I mean, I don't mean any disrespect, and since we have many foreign friends who are on this program — but to my mind, we have lost the battle to fight corruption in this country long ago, and I don't think we can ever now initiate that battle. There is no way. I think people have come to, I would say, compromise with corruption. People have come to now feel that it's all right. I mean, it's part of — businessman feels that part of my earnings I must spend in facilitating easy favors, or easy decisions, or easy approvals, or to even avoid unnecessary visits by inspector to my factories or my offices. So this has become part and parcel of everybody's, I would say, this attitude, because people are not willing to really stand up.

And I don't blame people for that. I don't blame, because if supposing you file a complaint and you go to a court, the court will be hearing that case for 10 years. The complainant will be required to go to court some 200 times. Now does he have time to do that? Why should he be subjected to that kind of treatment? The system, every system, to my mind, has failed, right from the word police. When he goes to police to file a complaint, first police will discourage him from filing the complaint. They will ask him, what is your motivation? Instead of trying to catch the culprit, the corrupt man, they will ask the complainant, what is your motivation in coming here? And they will deceive him, they will discourage him from filing the complaint in the first instance. Ultimately, if they are forced to register the complaint, then this innocent citizen's plight starts. Then court, then all kinds of problems.

And ultimately, the burden of proof in corruption cases, although it's very simple, but it is made so complicated by judicial structure, that more often than not these cases take such a long time that the proof, ultimately the evidence, disappears. Somehow it disappears. It's very very difficult to do anything.

I'll give you one simple example. I was a special prosecutor for Government of Karnataka to prosecute late chief minister of Tamil Nadu, Jayalalithaa, and Sasikala, and it was an open and shut case. The trial court, sorry, the trial court convicted, and the High Court released her on completely ridiculous grounds, and it was a totally unsustainable judgment. And I argued the case, I still remember, before bench of Justice Pinaki Ghose, who is now our great Lokpal — and after becoming Lokpal, I don't see him having taken up a single case in last two years or three years. His office was opened by Prime Minister Modi in Ashoka Hotel with great fanfare, but I don't think you have ever heard that Lokpal has handled a single case in newspapers.

Anyway, I argued this case before the bench presided by Justice Ghose and somebody else, I forget the name of the other judge, and the judgment was reserved. Open and shut case, open and shut case. The judgment was not given for one year, and when I had insisted that judgment be given, the judgment was delivered after Miss Jayalalithaa died, and only Sasikala — because once the accused dies, what can you do in a criminal matter? So Miss Sasikala was found guilty and she was sent to jail, whereas Miss Jayalalithaa during her lifetime never faced that jail. So this is the level at which the fight against corruption is taking place in this country, and this is the highest court of the country, the Supreme Court of India. If Supreme Court has no interest in deciding such a matter within one week or two weeks, then what to talk about trial courts or the high courts?

So I feel that corruption is something which can be really fought by a group of determined, extremely motivated, determined officers in the police, who are created as a special cell to really fight corruption. Of finding such extremely honest and motivated group of officers today is well nigh impossible. I mean, it's so difficult to find people who will have that kind of a track record and who will have that kind of a zeal. But if you find such a cell, then you must be in a position, as Mr. Karnal Singh rightly says, where people can file anonymously a complaint, and the complaint should be investigated.

But then, what will happen in this country of 1.3 billion people? People will be making completely bogus complaints from time to time, and these officers will therefore be completely flooded with many a times wrong complaints. So how do you then deal with it? So you also must have a mechanism that if somebody gives a false complaint, then he should be prosecuted. Now have you heard of a single case where a citizen has been prosecuted for a false complaint in this country? I have not. The IPC has provisions for such a situation, but it doesn't happen.

So my own take is that unless a concerted effort is made by the executive, the bureaucracy, the police, the judiciary — forget the politicians, the politicians have their own ways of looking at all these — but in this group of people... I remember, many years ago in Italy, the judges decided, and they took upon themselves, that we must fight the mafia and we must finish them off. Many judges were attacked, many judges were murdered, but this group of prosecutors and judges actually went about cleaning Italy from the clutches of the mafias in a remarkable way. It was a long fight for almost 10 years, but they did it. Now that kind of determination has to come to a group of people in this country. They all have to sit together, they have to think together, they have to apply their mind together. Unless we do that, I don't think citizens can be really the eyes and ears to fight corruption.

I don't think, I don't expect my citizens really to be subjected to ill treatment by this rich and powerful people who are indulging in corruption openly, on day in and day out basis, openly. Now even man like Gogoi, who after his retirement has accepted a favor from the government to become a Rajya Sabha member, in a television interview has said there is corruption in Supreme Court. So what was he doing as Chief Justice? What was he doing as Chief Justice? So it's all right for everybody. All these people, nobody wants to take the responsibility. Nobody wants to really start the fight against corruption. Everybody wants to talk about it, those who are in power, those who are in position to fight corruption.

And I can tell you, I mean, judiciary has many, substantially overwhelming honest judges, but there are rotten apples in judiciary at every level, and nothing happens to them. Nothing happens to them. I have seen judges also, post retirement, whose children have bought houses for 200 crores of rupees. So if nothing can be done about it, so I feel that, you know, let us together understand what this country's problems are. Corruption needs to be fought, but as I said earlier, the battle to fight corruption in India is long lost. I don't think we can ever really do any meaningful opposition to corruption in this country. Thank you so very much. Thanks a lot.

Thank you so much for your comments. And one of the things that I'd like to sort of say: our president Mr. Sipal Singh has summons which came to him a few days back, dating back to an authority letter that he'd given to someone in the year 2004. So 17 years after a particular letter was signed, given to somebody to do a particular job, Mr. Sipal Singh, at the age of 85, he was being summoned to Delhi to give evidence on something that he doesn't even remember as to what he had asked the other person to do. So this is just a comment that I have from your talk. We have questions. Sanjay Ricky, can you please ask your question?

Yeah, very good evening, and thanks for the insights and the updates on corruption. Let me now share my view and a small honest question, full of determination, as you parted with saying that, you know, we need the will to really curb corruption. As an individual, I would say it's difficult to give up on the fact to curb corruption. What overall changes can be proposed now in all sections of the society, after having taken the stock of the present situation? That's one. And can we not make a road map now, as a common citizen, and fix up milestones, so that we can systematically approach this and make it happen somehow, to really become the eyes and ears of the nation to really curb corruption? A very very humble question: can we not really brainstorm, and can we get some, I think, you know, experts, I think, you know, just giving us a guidance in terms of making a white paper for the government, and really really show the will to really implement it?

I don't know what, I mean, Mr. Karnal Singh has a better experience than I have, and better qualifications, but I feel sometimes, you know, countries like China, for example, they fight corruption in a ruthless way. Over the years I used to see that China used to execute several hundred people on charges of corruption, and yet China has one of the highest levels of corruption today. I mean, although it's a communist country, and yet it has now breeding capitalism, and China's political leadership, there are serious allegations against them.

Now if you want to really do something in India, I think — and I may sound little cynical, and little, I would say, a little perhaps improper — but if you really want to fight this, you have to set examples. Catch thousand people in this country. It's very easy to catch them. They are all there. We see them every day. We know who are corrupt and who is not corrupt. We all know that. Catch those thousand people and bring them to justice. I am not for a moment saying that we should execute anybody — I am against death sentence in corruption cases — but at least bring them to justice. Seize their assets, seize the assets of their families, seize the assets of their friends, and see the kind of chilling message that you will send to society.

Today what is really happening is that there is no message being given to anyone. It is now become so rampant that everybody knows that I can do whatever I want to do, I can make money whatever way I want to make, nothing is going to happen to me — whether I am a bureaucrat, I am a judge, I am a politician, I am a serpent, I am a police officer, or even if I am a member of the anti-corruption squad. Not so? They all know that.

Or for example, industrialist. The kind of crony capitalism that India is seeing today is unparalleled. We are seeing how these people are suddenly becoming rich. There is a clear cut click between these politicians, bureaucrats and these business people. They are all scheming this country left, right and center. They are scheming the valuable resources of the country, and they are amassing wealth which is mind-blowing. We have these people with billions and billions and billions worth of assets and monies, while some 75, 80 crore people live below poverty line. We all know how it is happening. They are getting mining leases by paying money, they are getting other contracts by paying money. You think we don't know that? We all know it.

So unless we are willing to really pick out these thousand people to, say, set an example, we have to do something drastic. It might, to somewhat extent, become slightly, I mean, taking the procedural law out of the wind, because it's the procedural law which really keeps these people safe. We must forget these procedural safeguards, and we should try and bring them, and then, once you send a message — today there is no message at all. How do you fight crimes? You can fight crimes by ensuring that rule of law prevails in the country, by ensuring that people who are committing crimes are brought to justice. If you don't fight that, if you don't have a strong rule of law — which we don't have; I frankly feel that virtually there is no rule of law in this country, it's only for a common man; the rich and the powerful are above the law — so it's something which is so difficult to really happen, so difficult to achieve, well nigh impossible. Honestly, I've been a lawyer for 42 years, and I can tell you it's not going to be possible.

Mr. Karnal Singh, would you like to sort of add something? Say, unmute yourself please.

To begin with, let me talk about what Mr. Dushyant told about Italy. See what happened in it. It is a talk of 70s. To begin with, southern Italy was not progressing. How much money was put into that, but it was not developing. It was because of mafia, Italy mafia, working in Italy as well as in America. In the Italy there is a civil law system, so there are investigating judges also. So one of them issued this summons against mafia. He was killed. When he was killed, there was a public agitation, and after this public agitation the Parliament appointed a committee. Many of the parliamentarians were booked having connections with the mafia.

One particular prosecuting, the investigating judge, he started investigation with his team. Though he was being threatened, and instead of going through the criminal angle, he went into the money laundering. He coordinated with the US, and ultimately they were able to find out evidences of money trail. There is a case known as Maxi Trial in Italy, and there is a case of Pizza Trial in US. In that period, more than 200 mafiosos were prosecuted in Italy. They were convicted. But it requires a will. And I'll tell you, even that investigating judge was killed in 1992 by the mafia. You require the will of the government.

Ultimately, the public agitation is there, like we had public agitation in country when Anna agitation was going on. But what happened subsequently? Lokpal came, but what happened to Lokpal? As Mr. Dushyant Dave is explaining, what happened to that? Not even a single case coming in newspapers. Unless there is a will of the government, it will be difficult, even if the public comes forward.

We have poor people in the country. For them, giving something in bribe will be better than going to make a complaint. Even I have seen businessmen — when I tell them, why don't you make a complaint, they say, if I make a complaint against the government servant, then I'll not get benefit from the government in any other case. My file will be stuck up. People are afraid. Can we give them promise that if they give complaint, they will be protected? They will be protected in their business, they will be protected in their day-to-day life. We are not able to keep that. Unless we can give them protection, legal protection, things will be difficult, and for this it requires a will. Is your question?

Good evening everyone. Is my voice very audible? No? This is a very pertinent topic that you have chosen for the evening as a discussion. So after hearing Karnal Singh, I had just one thought in my mind, which I have actually mentioned in the chat as well: that something which intrigues me is that punishment, which is supposed to be the last mile to, say, infuse deterrence, is failing in its purpose, else there would have been a visible change. And the other thing that I want to bring in is about people. So people are supposed to be the change makers, who are supposed to actualize the actions post marking the accused of corruption. So are we short of the right-minded human capital to do the needful? So if we are actually short of the right-minded people, you know, emerging and coming into society, then how do we deal with this? So these are the points which I had in my mind when I was talking about corruption, and I'm speaking from the perspective of a very weak common man — something which our esteemed panelist, advocate Bhushan Dave, also hinted upon. So I was a little scared of asking this question as well, but since we have all a bunch of brave people over here, so I thought let's ask this.

See, the problem lies in our short-sightedness. You see the elections. Whom are being elected? On what, what is the criteria for election? Caste, favoritism. Are elections being fought in our country on development, on issues which we are facing, unemployment for example? And when we are giving votes on the basis of the religion, the caste, not on the basis of what is right in the country, so whom we end up selecting, electing for the Parliament? So how do we get the will? So public has to unite. Public has to get the will to cleanse the country, but that is lacking. Thank you.

I think, Mr. Pandit, the problem is more acute, you know, if I have to answer your question, and the problem is more acute because we as citizens today are not able to get the kind of moral value system that we should possess, either from our parents or from our teachers, and certainly not from our leaders. We all see them. Everybody looks at the success of these countries, and therefore everybody wants to imitate them. They see them going around indeed leading lives of kings and emperors. So young minds are bound to be influenced by this, and therefore everybody wants to make shortcuts in life.

So the value system, unless you can install — I must share with you, I have been very fortunate in having great parents. My father was a judge, but I do remember my father as a High Court judge, that by the 25th of every month we had no money in the house. We had no money. My mother could not even think of buying milk for three or four days. And we did not have — in those days there was no government car, there was no money to buy petrol, and my father would walk to the High Court or would go by auto. I remember me and my sister, when we had to use the telephone — in those days some 150 calls were given free on landline — we had to write each one of the calls that we would make, and 150th first phone call, he would make the payment to the High Court from his pocket. Now that's the level of value system that I have seen in my family. Today, you know, it's becoming very very difficult to have the value system. That's one problem.

The other is, Mr. Pandit, who is willing to make a sacrifice? Who is willing to make a sacrifice? I will tell you, in legal profession today, top seniors like us are briefed by lawyers from across the country. Now, and it has become extremely acute during pandemic, that every briefing lawyer expects a certain percentage of fees out of your fees. People like us who are not willing to do it are today suffering. So what do you do about this? You must be willing — I mean, take for example income taxes. In 42 years my return has never been even questioned, forget open, because I have never taken fees in cash. Whatever comes in cash, people give it, it is reflected in my books of accounts, deposited and reflected in my income tax return, and income tax is paid. I love money. I also love a jazzy life. I also would love to have a Lamborghini and drive around. But it's that commitment, now that sacrifice, people are unfortunately not willing to.

So you need a twin fold: you need value system in you, and you need willingness to make a sacrifice. Unless these two happen, Mr. Pandit, there is nothing that we can do about today's India. Our youth really are, they are our asset. Our youth are our asset, but our youth sadly are being misguided by our leaders, completely misguided. And our youth see what our leaders are doing — leaders in every walk of life, leaders in law, leaders in medical profession, leaders in industry, leaders in politics. Everywhere you see leaders who have become successful by shortcuts. Excellence is dying in this country, and excellence is not even being rewarded. So we are in a unique problem, very very unique problem. Problem is, nobody wants to talk about it. Nobody wants to discuss it. And let me tell you one thing, nobody will even utter a word about it. So unless we talk about it, unless we start discussing it openly, I mean, what is going to happen?

That's right. You know, at least NISSMAT made a start, with Mr. Sipal Singh having suggested this particular topic. Let's have Mr. Kosher Ahmed — is he there? Please, your question, your question please. Unmute yourself, John, please.

My question is very simple. Forgetting about an individual's contribution to curbing corruption, how can, as a country, we control the banking system to prevent and curb big time fraud and corruption? How much can the banking system be controlled? Because most of these frauds happen through public sector banks. The private sector bank, the CEO is very careful in lending. So is there some space in using it?

I don't, you know — look at this country. It's a very funny country. You have electoral bonds, which is nothing but open corruption. 4,000 crores of rupees is the investment of Bhartiya Janta Party through electoral bonds. What is an electoral bond? It's nothing but a bribe, but that bribe which is legally recognized, and Supreme Court is not willing to hear the challenge to the electoral bonds.

So banking, for example — you are very rightly asking a question. I know of, and I'm sure each one of us knows, large number of people around us who have borrowed tens and hundreds of crores of rupees from banks, not paid them, and yet they are all leading lifestyle of emperors. They are all driving in their Mercedes Benzes. They all go to Europe for summer vacations. Their children are doing businesses in some other names. 20 lakh crore, almost 20 lakh crore, is taken away from the banking system by these individuals. We are talking about one poor Mallya. What about Mr. Ambani, who has left a debt of four lakh crore? Does anybody speak about it? Why? Because of proximity to certain persons. Mallya was willing to pay you 15,000 crores back, because it's a symbol to, you know, that we are fighting corruption, but you are not willing to catch Mr. Ambani, who has left a four lakh crore debt.

I am appearing against him, for example, in a case in Orissa, for Orissa electricity grid, GRIDCO. Four and a half thousand crores of rupees of overdrawn escrow account, and for 15 years they did not even recover from consumers 25 percent of the dues. So you can imagine, somebody was taking this money in cash. It's very difficult. I don't think we have determination, because these people are very well entrenched. They have connections everywhere, from the top to the bottom. It's only in some cases that they will pick up Choksi, and some Mallya, and some other poor fellow. I mean, I have no sympathy for them, it's not that I have any sympathy for Mallyas and Choksis, but Choksi, Mallya, was allowed to leave this country by the very government.

I will tell you, share, you know, it was reported in Economic Times. Three days before Mallya left the country, the SBI sought my opinion, State Bank of India, and I said — it was a Sunday, I was in — they came to meet me at seven o'clock in the evening with their law firm associates, and I told them that tomorrow morning I can get a restraint order from Chief Justice Thakur's court in a pending case, so I don't need any paper, you just give me the permission and we will do it. I waited outside Chief Justice Thakur's court from 10:15 in the morning for them to come back to me. They never came back, and they allowed him to go. And now the same government says Mallya has run away. Oh come on, now give me a break. And it was reported in Economic Times; it's not something that I'm telling you now in hindsight.

So I think everybody has his own wheels to grind. I may sound cynical, but let me tell you, I have almost contempt for the systems in this country. The systems are only there in place to harass innocent people. Systems are completely overtaken by these kind of people, and nothing can be done about them. Nothing.

Yeah, John, please. Let's have Mr. Karnal Singh's opinion. He's been the Enforcement Director.

Very interesting question Mr. John has asked. See, the banking system. If you look at, the first stage is when a loan is granted, collateral securities is taken. So the question is, and financial statements are submitted. Now very interestingly, the financial statements which are submitted to the bank and which are submitted to the income tax are different. We have started this system now; we were not asking that you gave us the same report. On the bank, take reports from the income tax: what is the financial statement they have submitted? Financial statements to companies, Registrar of Companies, is different. Now when the collateral security is taken, nobody examine it properly. He's claiming it to be of rupees 100 crores. So recovery becomes difficult.

Thirdly, the banks have a large number of the computer systems. For example, Punjab National Bank has 30 different computer systems, and when this Nirav Modi case took place, they were not connected with the core banking. Then how the money is taken from the banks? It is not taking cash; it is through the shell companies. Now it is very interesting: one bank core banking system is not connected with another bank core banking system. I have given a proposal that we should have a query system in the Reserve Bank of India, where they can make a query about the movement of funds from one bank to another bank to third bank. It is still not implemented. There was a meeting with the RBI, with the secretary of Department of Economic Affairs. Directions were issued; not being done. The question is, the accountability is not there. If you have to please the system, we have to improve the system, then there has to be a responsibility.

Yes, Mr. John, sir. Mike.

I don't have the data, but by my gut feeling, I think if you take the overall percentage of frauds connived by public sector banks, it will be at least 50 times what is connived by private banks, because they have a board of directors to report to. If corporate lending is not allowed from public sector banks, and certain incentives are given to private sector banks for corporate lending, how good will be the effect?

Mr. John, let me tell you one thing before Mr. Karnal Singh responds to that. Take demonetization. Demonetization was a measure to fight black money, to unearth black money. A single penny has not been found to be black money post demonetization. Why? Almost 15 to 16 lakh crore, more than what was in official circulation, has been brought back into banking system. Every bank manager, we know, made money. Every bank manager. People went with their cash, illegal cash, and deposited, and the monies were shred by the banks within no time, under guideline directions of the Reserve Bank of India. So these are all classic examples. We don't see what is happening. It's all happening openly. It's all happening openly.

So don't worry, I mean, public sector banks, nothing will happen to them. They will continue to be what they are. If they are not allowed corporate lending, let corporate lending be done only by the private sector banks. I am very sure the chairman of a private sector bank will think 50 times before sanctioning a loan which is going to go bad, what you are responsible for. We must denationalize the banks.

How is the bank will earn? See, what is the source of earning of the banks? It is lending, and if you are saying they are not allowed to lend — no, he says that private sector banks should lend. Most of the lending goes to the — see, the public sector banks, if they will not lend, how they will — it will close down tomorrow. So we have to think about such solutions. May not be possible what you are suggesting, and Mr. Dushyant is right. What does it mean is, denationalize the banks.

John, actually the Yes Bank is also a private sector bank.

Yeah, I was about to say that. Because of lending, we have the case of Nanaki. Is ICICI again a private sector bank? So no bank is actually an exception, public sector or public or private sector, John. But what I see is that the real intent of the people, and the moral values — this is, these are very very brotherhood statements, or maybe terms which I am using, but the fact remains that the core of the problem is that only, in terms of, we lack values. We lack the will, actually. So we have to see futuristically how do we transform this. We make a roadmap to really see some silver lining, actually, to really curb corruption. Because these are all very very, I think, very very discouraging and very very disappointing, that we have to live with it as if. So whatever, impression is that if the banks can't do it, individuals can definitely never do it.

All right, now we have another question coming up from Roop Singh Khutul.

Good evening everyone, and thank you Sipal Singh ji and Pavanji for putting this topic. This is a great topic which should be discussed among societies, not only with few people, but here. I agree with Mr. Dushyant, the honest people has to be taken a task, and they should be treated or seen differently. So I can give you one example. I was going to construct my house in Gurgaon. So this particular plot is near Jharsa village, and you must knowing, because you are from Delhi NCR, that the story of Jharsa village. So these people never allow, you know, people to build a house, or the government people also, you know, with them.

So whatever I did, so I, you know, gather all the people who they have plot here, and we make a society, RWA. Now we take an oath in our society — we have I think 43 odd owners — and we all decided not to bribe any government office. We have to fight together, any kind of thing. So small small, you know, decision we have taken, and today police, local authorities, they are seeing our pocket is a most disciplined pocket, because we are not delaying paying taxes to the government, we are avoiding, you know, citizen here, you can see it. And after a gap of five years, again they brought me as president of this particular RWA.

So here I have one suggestion. We are, I think, 57 people, or maybe 60 people here. We can take oath now onwards. We have to teach our children, we have to teach our friends, we have to teach our neighbors, we have to suggest them: do one thing every day which can clean our society. So that kind of initiative we can start from now, from this particular forum. It will be a great thing. Otherwise, since 35 years — Mr. Sipal Singh, Mr. Pawan knows me — I have attended thousands of, you know, seminars, and that we have discussed. After coming out the seminars, we forget that what we have discussed. So each one has to take a task, to take oath: I will do one thing which is law abiding kind of things every day. This is from my side. I think we can discuss 30 days for same topic, but conclusion is nothing. So we have to come for the conclusion, and we each one has to take oath to do something to clean our society. Thank you very much.

Thank you very much, Roop, for the comments that you made. And now we're running out of time. I am giving it back to the president to sort of conclude the session.

Thank you. After the scintillating discussions and a lot of brainstorming session, which is, I cannot add much, but complete disappointment also is not the answer. Of course, Mr. Dave pointed out subsequently, yes, the moral values have to be — you again have to have those moral values which we had once, our religion, yet we forget about it for petty gains. So in any case, I feel that we cannot at least turn a blind eye. If we do not use the eyes and ears to expose corruption, at least let us not turn a blind eye to the corruption. Let us make some headway.

Some global initiatives were once listed, and nobody could know better than that. It was started with the World Bank, as to how to curb corruption. It laid out certain parameters. One was that the country, the society, should provide leadership to create international transparent standards. That leadership will come only for people like Mr. Dave or Mr. Karnal Singh, and I'm very happy that I selected the two top most speakers, who are not only speakers, who have got those moral values behind them, and who can definitely provide that sort of leadership to us. Secondly, the World Bank also laid down that in recognizing accountable efforts of the citizens, when there is a honest reporting by citizens, we have to do something to give them not only incentive, but only to give them recognition also. There's another point which is brought back here.

Third was to coordinate legal as well as administrative actions. We have got both here available: legal, nobody can tell better than a very very frank, forthright speaker like Mr. Dave, and administrative, Karnal Singh has been dealing with it. So the coordination of legal and administrative actions may help us to make some dent in this direction. Then, I think, lately the extensive use of technology to create tangible evidence may help to some extent to curb corruption, or to check corruption in any case.

There are legal remedies. I will not go into details, but the legal remedies have a lot of difficulties. For example, the Companies Act of 2015 lays down for the auditors and the cost accountants, mandatory, that they will not allow any unaccounted money not to be exposed. Similarly, there is also the Act 201 of this arbitration; they're also placed on certain parameters. Then, unfortunately, the Central Vigilance Commission initially has more of it advisory rather than directional. You all know that CVC is mostly on advisory basis; the directional basis are lacking. So maybe certain legal lacunas which are there, if we rectify, we may be able to get to that.

I think I started with the eyes and ears. Of course it has some effect. Me Too movement started sometime backwards; it has gone down. I think Me Too in this case would be that people who have been affected by corruption, if they start getting together and exposing the corrupt people, it may help. But of course it involves a lot of sacrifices. It involves a total mindset of an individual. I had the opportunity to work for long years where the very senior police officers of Maharashtra were sincere, and long back he always used to tell us that you people have joined the police service, but here is the cross, Christian, which I am carrying. Let us see how many of you follow this cross. And the cross means that in a year you might have to have about 20, 30 transfers in the police itself, because you have not gone by the laid down orders, or something like the orders given by some uncouth and a person who is not himself accountable to anyone.

So there is no doubt it's a very very difficult process to have these ears and eyes, but I am very happy that we have had these discussions. Maybe we make some start somewhere. With these words, I'd like to thank once again both the speakers as well as the delegates who put very important and inclusive questions. Let's hope that it at least turns us to some extent, and we are, out of so many people who are attending, one or two of us start having this, and probably in due course of time we may be able to have that leadership at that moment where we are able to expose the corrupt people.

With these words, I once again thank you all for having joined us in this webinar. And our next banner, next, our next interactive session is The New Afghanistan Government: Difficulties in Buying Peace by India. Now this is a very topical subject, and the speaker is Dr. Ajay Sahni, who is an executive director of Institute of Conflict Management. He has done a lot of research on terrorism as well as on insurgency. He is the speaker, and this interactive session, I'm sure, will be of great interest to people who are interested in the topical subjects today. This is on 25th February at 6 p.m. I request all of you to be with us, and for your own benefit as well as your own knowledge, because this gentleman — I've spoken to him and learnt a lot from him on terrorism and insurgency — Dr. Sahni will be talking on this subject.

With these words, I once again thank you for having encouraged us by your, Lord bless us, today very big presence, and number of countries have represented. Thank you very much, the learned speaker, that is Dr. Mr. Dave and Mr. Karnal. Thank you so much. I am indeed thankful to both of you who have accepted our invitation despite your reservation that nothing can be done, because I also subscribe to this view to some extent. But you have given us one idea, that moral values probably may be able to regenerate the moral values in our society, and start having, if thinking at least, that's some good day. Let the cross be taken by somebody, and let us see who all of us follow that. Thank you very much for having, me with us, thank you very much indeed.

Thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you, sir. Thank you, Mr. Sipal, sir. Thank you, sir. Thank you, sir. Excellent session, sir. Thank you. Thank you, John. Thank you very much. Thank you.