Induction of Women in Army through NDA

Ladies and gentlemen, it is my privilege to have General D.K. Mehta on the NISSMAT webinar on induction of women into the National Defence Academy. General Deepak Mehta was commissioned into the Indian Army in the year of 1972. He has been in the midst of active operations in Jammu and Kashmir and Arunachal Pradesh. He served the Army for 37 years, encompassing command, staff and instructional appointments. He was injured in J&K when commanding troops in the region. He has commanded an infantry brigade and a mountain brigade.

He has done staff appointments at nearly all the headquarters, and he raised the first information warfare cell for the Indian Army. He has been an instructor in the Army War College and the Indian Military Academy, and he's an apt person to sort of talk on induction of women into the National Defence Academy. The Supreme Court was told by the central government that a decision had been taken to induct women into the National Defence Academy on 8th of August 2021. General Mehta, do you think it has been the right decision?

Pawan, as a matter of fact, the ladies have been into the Army for as long as I remember. They were in the medical field, the Army Dental Corps; they were also in the Military Nursing Services. Besides, then, the last 30 years or so, women have been coming into the Army, in the mainstream Army, from the officers training school and also the Officers Training Academy. So to say that, yes, they have not been coming to NDA, because NDA has been primarily a male bastion, and it's going to be a major change in the environment when the young girls, they come into the NDA now. Just to give you a figure, it apparently has taken the young children in a big way; they were, for their UPSC examination, which is going to be held shortly, five lakh seventy thousand candidates have applied for it, out of which one lakh seventy eight thousand young girls have applied for admission into the NDA. Now it's gonna, may, just change what you see, which is happening.

General, what is the reason why women are attracted to the armed forces today?

I think it's the aura which the armed forces have, in terms of the discipline, in terms of the conduct. So by and large, even the civil street, the armed forces is a respected organization, establishment of the nation. So now one lakh 78,000 girls who are passing, or who are passing out of the school, are going to be appearing for NDA, which is going to be having a very limited capacity based on the establishment or the logistics support which the NDA will bring up. But it's a very, very major change.

I guess, you know, I was just asking as to what is attracting the Indian women into the Indian armed forces.

They must have seen a large number of ladies working in the combat support arms and also in the logistics systems that we have. And the combat support arms, they are in the Air Defence Artillery, the Engineers, the Signals, the ASC, the Ordnance. And the advantage they have, especially a child which has been in the science stream, when they come into the Army, they do the degree course and they are qualified engineers. The girls, or their children, who go into the logistics support, they do MBA, they do courses equivalent to MBA and equipment management. It's a very big field in the civil street also.

You know, there's been a bit of a dichotomy that's occurring. Are we talking of now reservations into the Indian armed forces? You're going to reserve slots in the combat support arms and the supporting arms for women, which would mean that you are denying the male officers the right to serve in these arms, because the vacancies would decrease, and they would increasingly be going on to the front line soldiering. So do you think it's right, creating reservations within the armed forces?

No, I don't think reservation is a desirable thing. The fact is, as far as the command and staff is concerned, I don't visualize any major problem in the foreseeable future, till the time the number of the lady officers increase in large numbers, because a large number of static formations and units where they can be employed. Yes, presently the people who are employed in these static formations and establishments are re-employed officers. When these ladies come in, probably the number of re-employed officers will come down to a certain extent.

So that is, you're trying to create reservation for a particular class of individuals and removing the other class of individuals from jobs. I don't know whether that's a good situation to be in or not, but what is your opinion, General?

Well, I don't see any major problem in the foreseeable future, because even amongst the re-employed officers, the numbers do not match up to the requirement. So I don't visualize, the next 10 years or so, there are going to be any major changes in this aspect.

From the language that you speak, I feel that you are saying that the women will fill in the blanks of the shortage. Is that your contention?

Not really. You see, as far as the progression in the armed forces is concerned, be it the Army, Air Force or the Navy, it depends on the performance of the unit, that is the confidential reports, the course gradings they get with the various courses they do, and also the state of the physical fitness. As long as they meet these three requirements, I feel there's not going to be any fallout as such.

You know, one of the other things that has happened is that the courts are directing the induction of women. It is not a self requirement that's been generated by the armed forces, that women would be a necessity or a necessary ingredient in the armed forces. Up here, the women are being forced into the armed forces by an order. What do you think, is it correct or incorrect?

No, as I mentioned earlier, women have been in the armed forces for a very long time. I'm a service from background, and so are you. I've seen ladies in uniform right from the time I've opened my eyes. So yes, I think they want to increase the numbers, and because of certain factors there are certain shortages in the officer cadre; they probably want to build up that officer cadre which is shorter there.

What I understand is that the women are being inducted to supplement the shortage.

To a certain extent, yes.

Okay. Now my next question to you is, with the induction of women or girl candidates into the National Defence Academy, what are the changes that the National Defence Academy will need to bring in culturally to accommodate the women into the National Defence Academy?

Firstly, I want to just bring out one more factor. The girls who were coming to the National Defence Academy would have just about finished the school, the three years that they're going to be there. So there has to be a major ethos change in NDA, which has been a male bastion till now. They may pick up certain things from the Officers Training Academy, where the young ladies have been there last three decades or so. But yes, it's going to be a major change in terms of logistic support, in terms of the safety, in terms of a certain amount of dilution in the physical standards.

So you agreed to the fact that there would be dilution of standards?

Yeah.

Okay. Now, the National Defence Academy gets students from feeder institutes, and I'm given to understand that the feeder institutes are also now going to open their doors to female students into their fold, like in the Sainik Schools and the RIMCs. Are you aware of this, and what is your opinion about it?

Yes, the government is already in the process of ordering Sainik Schools to be co-educational. Now the Sainik School will form the basic groundwork for induction of these cadres from the Sainik School into the NDA. But if you see, the number of students from Sainik School growing in India is rather small. But yes, it is going to be a very big change, with the girls coming into the Sainik Schools, girls coming into NDA. As far as the OTA is concerned, women officers are already there.

And what are the changes that are likely to come in within the functioning of the armed forces? Because except for the doctors and the MNS, the nursing staff, the women officers in combat supporting roles always retired at about an early age, after serving 14 years or lesser. Now that they would continue to be in service for a very long time, what are the changes that you envisage when running Army courses of instructions, or serving in the units, or commanding infantry brigades? What do you think is going to happen?

My views are that the lady officers who get commissioned from OTA or from IMA, or from the naval or the air academies, they should preferably be in the combat support arms. Now let's take for example the Air Force. The ladies are flying; they're flying helicopters and transport aircrafts, except for the three young girls who have gone into the fighter stream. In the Navy, there are large number of ladies who are in the surveillance stream, the maritime surveillance systems. As far as the Army is concerned, my recommendation is they should be restricted only to the combat support arms and the services, not in the combat arms as the infantry, mechanized infantry and the armoured corps.

So you are supporting the reservation of certain appointments within the armed forces for them?

Yes. Like now, based on the Supreme Court order, about 36 short service commissioned officers, the lady officers, have been given permanent commission. Now how do they progress thereafter? As I mentioned earlier, they have to be firstly in and about in the unit functioning, they have to be physically fit, and they have to do well on the various Army courses which they go on.

For some kind of a dichotomy that's in my mind, as to how the armed forces is going to adjust to these situations, especially the working condition of the forward defences. And you know, you cannot be actually a good person in the supporting arms if you really don't have any experience of fighting in the trenches, and trenches do not have civil amenities. So you know, how do you think it's all going to pan out?

Yes, I'm with you, I'm with you totally in it. The lady officers cannot, I mean, my recommendation, should not be commissioned into the combat arms. As far as infantry battalions are concerned, the officers are permanently fixed with it. They stay with the troops, they move with the battalions, they move from peace, field, high altitude, or counter-insurgency area or counter-terrorism area. Whereas the combat support arms, the ladies are not fixed; based on the theatre or the sector profile, they keep shifting the units from one to the other. So there's a lot of difference between the combat arms and the combat support arms.

And what about the ships? You see, on the ships, our ships are not made for ladies, and the billets and so on so forth within the ships are all meant for people staying in the barrack type situation. How do you think that the women will get accommodated on ships or in submarines?

Yes, there was a proposal to have the women on ships, but there's a lot of difference between operating on a ship. Visibly, in the operational areas of the Army is concerned, the ship is a very confined space, whereas in the operational areas a unit is spread over very vast area. So they're in penny packets, they're in a male dominated area, they have various tasks to do, like patrolling, ambushes and things like that. Whereas in the Navy, if you're on board of a ship, there are large number of people, where there are about 300, 400 people there, the officers there, they're all together. Whereas in the combat arm, like the infantry, that is not the case; they are spread over very, very wide area.

You see, India is experiencing the induction of women now, but in the United States, West Point has traditionally, over 100 years now, been accepting women into their armed forces. The Israeli defense forces also have a lot of women into their fold. So I think this is a welcome change. But one other question that comes into my mind is, would India allow women soldiers in combat arms to be inducted into the armed forces?

No, I would not recommend that. Even if you see the U.S. Army, or the British Army, or the NATO forces which were operating in Afghanistan, or U.S. Army operating in Iraq, the cutting edge were the men; the ladies only provided the combat support, in terms of logistics support, in terms of manning the bases, in manning the depots. The cutting edge, be it in Iraq or in Afghanistan, it was always the men who were the cutting edge, not the ladies. I have not seen a single lady as part of a combat force.

I don't know, but the Israeli defense forces, I think, have women in soldiering for themselves.

Yes, they have, but they must be employed in some static areas. But you see, there's so many videos have come, so many catches have come, but it's always the male dominated. I've yet to see a lady going out for patrol, or going out to any outdoor operation. It is always a men oriented thing. Ladies are there to give the combat support in terms of manning the offices, manning the surveillance centers, manning the depots and things like that.

General, one of the things that's likely to arise in the armed forces after the women get inducted is a lot of these women will marry armed forces soldiers, you know, the army officers who are already there. And then there would be a situation where the lady is posted somewhere and the officer is posted somewhere. You know, our compulsions within the armed forces are very different to those in the bureaucracy. How do you think the Army is going to tackle this?

Yes, there is a problem. Presently also, the Army works on a system of husband, wife being together for some time, but it cannot be enforced every time, unless of course the lady wants to join the regular commission and carry on in the Army and the husband looks after the children. The bulk of the people now, the ladies are static, with the children looking after, and the men out in the field. So there is going to be a problem in terms of posting husband and wife together at every station; may not be possible. Maybe after four or five years, or two, three, ten years, they may be put down together, like it happens amongst the doctors.

That's a very close sort of a situation, but when it comes down to fighting arms and the positions that they need to be holding, I sort of foresee some kind of an accommodation having to be arrived at, to be able to live properly in the armed forces. So anyways, thank you very much, General, for your time and for your insights into the induction of women in the armed forces. I thank you very much for your time.

Thank you very much. Thanks, thanks very much. Thank you.